Our Interviews

An interview with Cemil Bayik, KCK co-Chair, about the latest developments in Kurdistan, the Middle East and the world, including the importance of Abdullah Öcalan for politics in Turkey, NATO´s direct assistance for Turkey´s use of banned weapons in South Kurdistan/North Iraq, the success of modern guerrilla tactics against the Turkish army, the results of the last NATO summit and the deepening crisis in Iraq:

The Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan continues to be under a heavy isolation on the Turkish prison island Imrali. Despite this, the agenda in Turkey revolves around him. How do you evaluate this situation?

The vigil in Strasbourg for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo continues, just like the campaign that was launched by trade unions in the UK. Recently, hundreds of intellectuals and writers have made statements. I would like to take this opportunity to greet and pay my respects to all those who stand against the genocidal politics of the Turkish state and fight for the physical freedom of Önderlik [Abdullah Öcalan]. They are waging a very important struggle. Because defending Rêber Apo [Abdullah Öcalan] means defending freedom, democracy, the peoples of the world and human values. There are many reasons why the isolation against Önderlik has become so severe. First of all, they are afraid of Rêber Apo. They do not want his voice to reach the peoples. Because they know very well how much this affects the peoples.

Another reason for the increasing isolation is that the leadership has been in prison for 24 years and the 25th year is about to begin. According to European law, the Turkish state needs to reconsider the sentence imposed on Önderlik. In fact, Rêber Apo needs to be released from prison. But Turkey wants to keep him in prison until the end and destroy him. That is why they are making false allegations from a legal point of view. For example, they say “he committed a disciplinary offense”. The Turkish state has to submit an official answer to Europe by September. The Turkish state wants to prevent the release of Rêber Apo with these false disciplinary penalties. Our people, especially the lawyers, need to understand this very well and take this seriously. They must defeat the legal frauds of the Turkish state.

No matter what the Turkish state does, it cannot sever the connection of Önderlik with the Kurdish people, the PKK, the peoples of the world and humanity. This is not possible. Today, Rêber Apo has a place in the hearts of all peoples, especially women. It is not possible for the Turkish state to change this. Therefore, it is only fooling itself. Rêber Apo’s ideas and philosophy are spreading day by day. Those who struggle for freedom, democracy and socialism are embracing Rêber Apo more and more every day. Rêber Apo said, “I am wherever my Defense Writings are.” Rêber Apo’s Defense Writings are everywhere now. Everyone who reads and understands Rêber Apo embraces him. That is why the cadres of this movement, more than anyone else, should ensure that Rêber Apo’s ideas spread even more. Supporting Rêber Apo means supporting the Kurdish people and standing against AKP-MHP fascism and genocide.

The genocidal Turkish army’s attacks on the areas Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna in South Kurdistan/North Iraq continue. The guerrilla is putting up an epic resistance against these attacks. Recent statements by the HPG [People´s Defense Forces] show that the Turkish army has chemical weapons more than 1500 in South Kurdistan this year alone. The Turkish state also recently published a video proving that it uses chemical weapons¹. Despite this, they cannot break the guerrilla resistance. At what stage are the guerrilla resistance and the war now?

Rêber Apo has said that the greatest of all technology is the human itself. Because it is the human who is capable of using technology. Today, we can see this very clearly in Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna. The Turkish state uses all kinds of nuclear, phosphorus, thermobaric and chemical weapons. Reconnaissance planes fly over the areas dozens of times every day. They use tanks, artillery, missiles, simply everything they have. NATO supports them, Barzani helps them in every way and they also use gangs [Islamist proxy-forces]. But they have still not been able to achieve any results. This shows that the guerrilla has prepared itself against all the techniques of the Turkish state. That’s why it deals heavy blows to the Turkish state. The enemy had aimed to occupy these areas in a few weeks and eliminate the guerrilla.

Today, more than 4 months after the start of this year´s attacks, they still cannot take a step forward, they are stuck against the guerrilla. They have many problems. They even bomb the corpses of their own soldiers so that no one can find them. At the same time, they spread all kinds of propaganda among the people. They say that they are striking a blow against the guerrilla and are thus waging a special war. Many of their soldiers die here, but they don’t publish most of their identities. They announce just a few of them. In this way the Turkish state want to keep the people’s faith alive. And they use this to pursue their own politics. The guerrilla is in possession of the bodies of numerous soldiers and has published their names. The guerrilla has even announced the soldier´s dog tags for everyone to believe them. They have also called on the families to come and take the bodies. So the reason why the Turkish state uses so many banned weapons and chemical weapons is because it is losing against the guerrilla.

I congratulate the HPG and YJA Star guerrillas. They defend the honor of the Kurdish people and humanity. They sacrifice their lives for this. They are loyal to Rêber Apo, the guerrilla and the şehits [martyrs], they are based on Rêber Apo’s philosophy and ideology, they love the people, freedom, democracy and their land. They put up a heroic resistance. That is why they are heroes not only of the Kurdish people but also of humanity. Because they are fighting against fascism and genocide and are giving their lives for this. That is why everyone should unite around the guerrilla and increase their protests. All the burden should not be left on the shoulders of the guerrilla which is already fulfilling its duties. Everyone should fight everywhere with the same spirit as the guerrilla resistance. Recently, there have been some protests, but they are not enough. There need to be more protests.

Our friends in Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna are struggling under great difficulties. Maybe they don’t eat for days, maybe they can’t take a bath for months, they have a weapon in their hands and they resist against the enemy’s technique day and night. They are dealing great blows to the Turkish state. Everyone needs to see this. The following attitude would be wrong: ´Let the guerrilla wage a struggle under these conditions and let us just say, ‘We are their comrades, we are loyal to them’, but let us not fulfill our duties.´

The tactic the guerrillas are using is a new tactic. That’s why they are dealing big blows to the Turkish state. This is not only said by us, but also by those who used to be members of the Turkish state’s special forces. They admit that the guerrilla has renewed itself, that it has become very strong. And they admit that they are unable to achieve any results against the guerrilla. Maybe some may consider what we say as an exaggeration, but the enemy himself admits that this is the case. So there is no exaggeration here, we are simply stating the is truth. Everyone needs to see this and do their part. Once again, I would like to congratulate the HPG and YJA Star guerrillas. They are doing great heroic deeds. They are setting an example for the whole world. Everyone gains strength from this.

The guerrilla is currently using tunnel and team tactics. Since these complement each other, the Turkish state is receiving heavy blows and does not get any results despite its modern technology and tactics. That’s why they are stuck. They don’t know how to get out of their current situation. That’s why they want to escalate the war in some places. But they cannot get results from this either. Wherever they try to get out, they simply get stuck even more. They are receiving more and more heavy blows. That is why a big war is being waged. This war will bring about the end of AKP-MHP. The forces fighting against fascism need to take these developments very seriously. They need to consider the guerrilla’s struggle as their own struggle and fulfill their duties.

You talked about how heavy the war in South Kurdistan/North Iraq. Recently, the guerrilla also published the balance sheet of this year´s war that has been going on for 4 months now. According to the balance sheet, 1871 invaders have been killed and 84 guerrillas were martyred. Tactical nuclear and chemical weapons have been used 1532 times by the Turkish state. How do you evaluate the most recent phase of the war?

Our headquarters regularly published balance sheets. These balance sheets clearly show the scale of the war. The Turkish state has suffered huge blows in this war. The guerrilla also has martyrs. But when we compare, the guerrilla’s losses are not so much compared to the scale of the war being waged. This is the result of the guerrilla’s struggle against the enemy’s technology. The guerrilla not only suffers few casualties, but also strikes great blows against the enemy and defeats its technology. The peoples struggling for freedom all over the world can draw many conclusions from today´s resistance in Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna. They should not fight like they used to, because they cannot get results that way. But if they draw conclusions from the resistance in Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna, if they train themselves accordingly, they can easily continue their struggles for democracy and freedom.

The situation is not the same as before. The capitalist system has changed its technology and tactics, especially against the guerrillas. So that the guerrilla ceases to be a force for freedom. The HPG and YJA Star guerrillas are also fighting against the enemy with new tactics. This is why the Turkish state cannot achieve results despite the help of NATO, Barzani and the use of chemical weapons. The friends fighting in the Medya Defense Zones [areas in South Kurdistan controls by the guerrilla] are an example not only for our movement or the Kurdish people, but for all humanity. Maybe the guerrillas are waging this struggle under very difficult conditions, but they are waging their struggle consciously. In other words, they know what they are doing for the PKK, for the people, for humanity. If they weren’t conscious, if there wasn’t a strong will, strong comradeship, there wouldn’t be a strong struggle. No one would be able to live in those areas even for a single day.

The guerrillas have been waging a relentless resistance [against the Turkish state´s attacks on South Kurdistan] for more than 4 months now. Rêber Apo’s philosophy and ideology are the basis for this epic resistance under such difficult circumstances. The guerrilla is heroically fulfilling its duty. What is required of everyone is to understand the guerrilla’s struggle under those conditions and fulfill their duty on this basis. We know what kind of difficult circumstances the guerrillas are fighting under. That’s why we constantly think about how we can be worthy of those friends, how we can increase the struggle. We have no other goal than that. No matter what we do for those friends, we cannot repay our debt. Because they fulfill a historical duty for us, for our people, for humanity.

If the guerrillas resist heroically under those conditions, we need to fight more with that spirit and will outside [of the mountains]. We need to be worthy of those friends. The friends [in the guerrilla] need to know that no matter what happens, we will pay our debt to them and we will fight on this basis. The friends should also know that no matter how much propaganda the enemy makes, the Turkish state has lost against the guerrilla and will lose even more. On this basis, I would like to once again congratulate the YJA Star and HPG guerrillas and express my gratitude.

After the recent NATO meeting in Madrid, a meeting between Erdogan and Putin took place. Immediately afterwards, the attacks against the Kurds increased. How do you evaluate these meetings and the plans and policies of the hegemonic powers?

At the NATO meeting in Spain, new NATO members were accepted. In order to accept these members, they fulfilled the demands of the Turkish state. What are the demands of the Turkish state? It says that NATO should help Turkey, that it should support and not oppose the war against the PKK, and that it should deliver weapons. In other words, the Turkish state demands that nobody should oppose it, no matter what it does. The Turkish state does not have the power to fight against the PKK and to commit genocide. This policy of genocide was developed in Lausanne and the Turkish state is simply carrying out this policy. NATO stands behind the Turkish state´s insistence on the politics of genocide and liquidation. Therefore, I would like to make the following call on NATO: Do not be a partner in the Turkish state’s politics of genocide. They should not conduct politics with Turkey against the Kurds. Kurds are not like they used to be, they have made the decision to achieve freedom and have paid a price for this. Therefore, no one will be able to benefit from the genocide against the Kurds.

Recently, a meeting took place in Tehran. There, Turkey asked both Russia and Iran to accept its demands. What are Turkey’s demands? The liquidation of the PKK, the genocide of the Kurdish people. Especially the occupation of new territories in Rojava. They want to completely eliminate the status of Rojava. AKP-MHP demanded this in Tehran, but their demands were not accepted. But this does not mean that nothing was accepted at this meeting. In fact, some decisions were taken in terms of Turkey re-establishing relations with Syria, the Syrian regime coming to power in Rojava, and regarding the exchange of intelligence. But these are not Erdogan’s demands. That’s why shortly after he went to Sochi and met with Putin. There he demanded more from Putin. On his return to Turkey, Erdoğan said, “We will focus on North and East Syria with Putin, we will work together.” This statement shows everything.

In Sochi, Russia obviously made some promises. They promised not to close the airspace [in North and East Syria]. This can clearly be seen in practice. Because they do not raise their voice against the air strikes of the Turkish state. There is also intelligence sharing. That is why the Turkish state has increased its attacks on North and East Syria after the meeting in Sochi. The occupation and attacks against North and East Syria have continued uninterruptedly. If Russia had not paved the way for these attacks, the Turkish state would not have been able to attack. The Turkish state massacres children, women and the elderly every day.

Both America and Russia are responsible for these massacres. Our people in Rojava also say this, so they do not back down in the face of attacks. They say, “Whatever the cost, we will not give up our lands, we will resist until the end.” This is the right thing to do. There is no other way for our people except resistance. They can only live by resisting. These powers have given nothing to our people except massacre, exile, migration and demographic change. As long as there is no change in the genocide policy these powers developed in Lausanne, the massacres against the Kurds will continue. Our people need to know this well. First and foremost, our people need to believe in themselves. They should not expect anything from anyone.

Turkey wants to establish relations with the Syrian regime, but this won´t be easy. There are huge problems. In Idlib, there is a government supported by the Turkish state, and the Turkish state has occupied many places and created a fake army consisting of thousands of gang members [Islamist proxies]. How will this work? Another important point is that recently a female minister of Erdogan publicly said, “We deliberately lured the Syrian people to Turkey. We had a purpose. That´s why we brought millions of people here to fulfill our goal. We took advantage of them, we received money from the EU, we made huge profits by employing them cheaply in Turkey, we brought all the factories in Syria to Turkey, we formed an army from the gangs among them and we use them everywhere. And now we want to resettle them in Syria and in the Kurdish areas.” She said all this openly. For years, the EU and the US have been paying the Turkish state for these refugees. In other words, they have supported Turkey’s genocide policy.

The people and fighters of Rojava have fought against ISIS and have dealt a major blow to these gangs. They have saved humanity from a great scourge. Therefore, humanity is indebted to Rojava and the Kurdish people. But the Turkish state massacres these people every day. Most recently in a school, they martyred children of those who fought against ISIS. The EU and the USA need to recognize this. In this sense, they should not give material and moral support to the Turkish state and should not be its partner in this genocide policy. Our people need to know that a very dirty policy is being carried out against them. The Turkish state wants to evacuate the villages [in Rojava/North and East Syria] and force the people to flee. That is why they are attacking villages. No matter what the cost, no one should leave their villages. If the people leave, the Turkish state will achieve its goal.

The Turkish state also aims to weaken the movement by eliminating the cadres and the leadership. This is the kind of tactic they are pursuing right now. In other words, they want to weaken both the people and the military forces. The Turkish state wants Erdogan to stay in power by massacring Kurds. Our people must remember this and prepare themselves in every possible way. They must fight against whoever is hostile against them.

Despite all the repression by the fascist regime, August 15th – the ‘day of the resurrection revolution and the guerrilla’ – was celebrated with enthusiasm in all four parts of Kurdistan and all over the world. Recently, the HDP also organized two huge rallies demanding peace and democracy. What do you think about the level of the resistance for democracy and freedom?

In all parts of Kurdistan and outside Kurdistan, wherever there are Kurds, August 15th was celebrated in many different ways. I would like to thank our people everywhere for this and express my respect and loyalty to them. With this spirit we have achieved everything and with this spirit we will continue. This spirit was not only necessary for the current period, the Kurdish people will always need this spirit. With this spirit, many revolutions have been realized, many values have been created and the Kurdish people have made themselves an example in the world, and Rêber Apo has become the leader of freedom among the people. If we continue to walk in this spirit, we will achieve even greater breakthroughs. Because this is the spirit of freedom and democracy, a spirit that does not recognize obstacles. This spirit is necessary for the Kurdish people and humanity. Only with this spirit can they realize their goals and dreams.

Recently, the HDP organized some successful rallies in Turkey. Because Turkey has entered a new atmosphere. Everyone is organizing rallies. Not only the HDP, but all democratic and socialist forces standing against the AKP-MHP fascist regime need to further develop their protests and activities. The steps taken by these forces so far are good, but not enough. The AKP-MHP’s situation is obvious, they are weakened, everyone says their end is coming. Who has pushed them to this point? The struggle waged by Rêber Apo, the PKK and the guerrilla has brought about their end. Thanks to this struggle, the AKP-MHP has ended up in this state. But the ‘Table of Six’ [elections alliance of six statist parties, including the CHP and IYI Parti] does not create hope for the peoples and the forces of democracy. Why? Because what they put forward only serves the AKP-MHP. The people of Turkey want to organize protests to get rid of the AKP-MHP, but the ‘Table of Six’, especially the CHP, prevents this by saying ‘don’t fall into the trap, don’t go to the streets, we will solve everything with elections’. In this way they are pacifying the popular movement, they are doing exactly what the AKP-MHP want. When the AKP-MHP gets stuck, the CHP and others rush to their aid and save them. This reveals their true being. Because they all take the politics of the Turkish state as their basis, they have an ideology which they predicate themselves on. Whether they are in power or in opposition, they do not take any step outside of this framework, they complement each other in this way. They have maintained this policy until now and they continue to insist on it. Our people have understood this, and – although still on a rather low level – this situation is being better understood every day in Turkey. Therefore, it is now necessary to defeat the official politics of the state. This is what those with a democratic and socialist mind need to do. In the name of fighting fascism, in the name of democracy and socialism, they should not impose pacifism on the people and should not act within the limits set by AKP-MHP. This situation poses a great danger for the forces of democracy and socialism, women, Kurds and Alevis. The AKP-MHP sets a framework and says ´Everyone must act within the limits of this framework´. They put those who do not act within this framework under suspicion and say, ´These are terrorists, they want to break up Turkey´, thus making them take serve the AKP-MHP.

Today, the AKP-MHP is not as strong as before. In the past, they used to achieve certain things through intimidation, but their regime is now collapsing. Therefore, no one should see the AKP-MHP as they used to be. It is true, their oppression is great, perhaps this oppression and pressure will continue. In fact, the more they oppress, the more they bring about their own end. But they don’t have the power they used to have, they can’t maintain their power in all areas and are worried about how to deceive the people and how to stay in power. Because they have realized that their end is coming. Everyone needs to see this and fight more courageously. All anti-fascist forces need to come together and join forces on the basis of certain set of principles. They don´t need to agree on every issue, but on the basis of how to fight against fascism and how to work for democracy. If they take steps on this basis, the forces of democracy can create a great force and have a great impact on Turkish politics. Maybe they haven´t been able to do this until now, but today this is possible. Rêber Apo, the PKK and the guerrilla have paved the way for this at great cost. What is asked of these forces is to walk on this path. If they do this and take courageous steps, they will become a great force. Then neither the AKP can remain in power nor the ‘Table of Six’ can carry out the official policy of the Turkish state in the AKP´s place. The AKP-MHP have reached their peak in conducting the official politics of the Turkish state. In this politics, AKP-MHP have done what they had to do, but now they are not in a position to take further steps anymore.

Their fall needs to be the main issue for everyone, everyone needs to fight for the fall of the AKP-MHP. These forces need to not allow the price they have paid so far, the struggle they have waged so far, to be in the service of others, in the service of the official politics of the Turkish state. If the forces of democracy act courageously, they can lead Turkey towards democratization, they can create a democratic republic in Turkey, they can solve the problems of the peoples, including the Kurds and Alevis. The possibilities for this to happen have already emerged. The HDP can do this. Everyone is already saying this. They say that the HDP needs to take a leading role in these developments. The HDP must realize these hopes and expectations, in other words, it must take on this task. The HDP must unite and mobilize all anti-fascist democracy forces, increase the struggle for democracy, and ensure the establishment of a democratic republic as an alternative to fascism. If the HDP does this, it can use its influence to bring about changes in Turkey.

As we enter the election process, the role of the Kurds can no longer be ignored. Those who did not see the will and demand of millions of Kurds – including the press that calls itself oppositional – during this year´s Newroz celebrations, now organize rallies in Kurdistan, supposedly to listen to the demands of the people. HDP, on the other hand, has has taken a clear stance by saying ‘we are the force of solutions’. What can you say about this contradictory situation?

HDP’s stance is appropriate, it needs to understand itself as the force of solutions. It needs to say ´We are the ones who must solve all the problems that exist in Turkey´. With this aim, they need to announce their program and do politics accordingly. This will strengthen both the HDP and the socialist forces of democracy and freedom, as well as Turkey as a whole. This is the right thing to do. Despite the spectacular Newroz celebrations that took place this year, politicians and the press in Turkey ignored them. This does not mean that they did not see it, in fact they saw this very well. That is the reason for their fear. Because they had claimed, ´We have put an end to the PKK, the HDP can no longer take to the streets, the Kurdish people will now be at our service´. This is what they thought. But during this year´s Newroz, they saw that this was not the case and that in fact the opposite was true. Therefore, they tried to hide this fact. But by doing this, they will not achieve anything. This will only bring about their end.

Everyone says that the Kurds are playing the key role in the upcoming elections. This is true. However, they are not acting according to the correct things they are saying. They are again approaching with the old mind, the old politics; they are calculating on how to deceive the Kurds. They want to win Kurdish votes in the election to complete the massacre of Kurds. But today, the Kurdish people are aware of this. The Kurds have been struggling and paying the price for years. No one can deceive the Kurds like that. That era is over. Therefore, everyone must approach the Kurds correctly. Kurds want answers to their questions from everyone: What will be your approach to Rêber Apo? Do you accept the injustice Rêber Apo has suffered or not? What do you want to do about the Kurdish problem? Will you continue the Kurdish genocide, or will you abandon this policy and accept Kurds as a people and give them their rights? What will you do about democracy? The Kurdish people are waiting for answers to these questions. No one can treat the Kurds like they used to. The Kurds have their principles, goals and values. No one can get support from the Kurds with the help of money, deception, tactics and lies.

Certain circles in Turkey have realized that the AKP-MHP era is over and they want to replace them with someone from the ‘Table of Six’. Some people from the ‘Table of Six’ hope that they will come to power. Therefore, they say ‘we will make peace’. However, they do not explain how they are going to do this. They cannot fool the Kurds with this. You have committed so many massacres and atrocities, and you are still continuing this on Rêber Apo and the Kurdish people. You stand behind the decision of war, you support isolation, you support the extermination of the Kurds, how can you deceive the Kurds in this situation? They are saying, ´Forget what happened, let’s make peace and just serve us´. Such a reconciliation is not possible. They think they can deceive the Kurds by going to Roboski again and by pretending that they are friends of the Kurds. Those who are friends of the Kurds should stand against isolation, oppose the war, accept the Kurdish people and give the Kurds their rights. When they say, ´The politics we have been conducting until now was wrong, we have been hostile to the Kurdish people, we want to accept the Kurdish people and give them their rights,´ then they can make peace. Otherwise, they are just deceiving themselves, but they cannot deceive the Kurds. Kurds should openly say to those who make such propaganda: ´Are you against the politics of genocide? How do you want to solve the Kurdish problem? How do you want to end the isolation? How will you open the door to the prisons? Have you decided to do all this or not? Say these things openly.´ This is how pressure should be created. Either they need to take steps or they will continue to carry out the politics of genocide. We think it is important that everybody understands this.

Lately, another development that truly hurts has been the politics of destruction and plunder against the nature of Kurdistan. This issue has been on the agenda especially in virtual media networks. What can you say about the reaction against the ecological destruction and the hypocrisy displayed against the nature of Kurdistan?

The Turkish state is anti-Kurdish, it wants to eliminate everything that is called Kurdistan or Kurdish. It does not hide this but says openly that this is its goal. It is completely focused on this goal and has tied its fate to it. The Turkish state says, ´Either I maintain my power by destroying the Kurds or I will disappear´. Those who have come to power in Turkey in the past remained in power on this basis. Those who were in favor of the continuation of the Kurdish genocide came to power and stayed in power on this basis. Otherwise it would have not been possible for them to stay in power. The AKP-MHP promised to continue the genocide. But despite using all the means at their disposal, they failed to achieve results. That is why their power is now coming to an end. This is the reason for the limitless enmity the AKP-MHP exhibits. It is cutting down trees, bombing everywhere, building dams, forcing people to flee their homes, arresting and torturing, killing people in the prisons and doing everything it can to eliminate the possibility of Kurdish life.

Cutting down trees in Dersim and Botan [regions in North Kurdistan/East Turkey] cannot be explained simply by the fact that these trees are being sold and money is being made with them. This is the result of the politics of genocide. It is important for everyone to understand this. The reason why they attack the nature of Kurdistan is because they want to commit genocide. Because the Kurdish people can survive bases on their natural resources. Nature is the source of life. If you dry up this source, there is no such thing as life. This is one of the reasons why the Kurdish people live in a difficult situation and face obstacles today. Because there is destruction, death and elimination everywhere in Kurdistan. A people living in such a situation will of course experience difficulties. Our people need to overcome these difficulties, and the way to do this is to reject the policy of the Turkish state in Kurdistan and to stand courageously against it. The Turkish state can kill, but it already does this every day. It is destroying the basis of life of the Kurdish people. Thus, it wants to kill the entire Kurdish people. To stand against their politics and pay the price means to prevent genocide. This will give you your homeland, your land, your values, your freedom and your identity. There is silence when women are killed, silence when forests are cut down, silence when everywhere is bombed, silence when dams are built, silence when people are executed in prisons. But this is unacceptable. This silence needs to end, our people need to say “enough”. Cutting down all the trees is a justification for an uprising, killing women is a justification for an uprising, attempting to plunder a place with the excuse of building mines is a justification for an uprising. The plundering of lands should not be allowed. If everyone comes together and joins forces, the Turkish state will not be able to do any of these things. If it is doing these things, it is doing them because of the silence. Everyone is waiting for each other. But this is wrong. No one should wait for each other. Everyone should see what is being plundered as their own property and oppose it. They should see the murdered women as their own daughters and wifes and stand up for them. They should make all these events a reason for an uprising. If they do this, the enemy will not be able to continue its politics.

There is chaos in Iraq. Of course, one of the reasons for this chaos was the protests that emerged after the massacre committed by the Turkish state in the South Kurdish village Perex in the Zaxo area. How do you evaluate the latest situation in Iraq?

When the massacre in Perex happened, there was a strong reaction among the Iraqi people, and it seems that this reaction will only get stronger. This will affect the Kurdish people, the Arab people in other regions and will create a very strong movement against Turkey. Certain forces saw that the Kurdish people would benefit from this situation and that the concept against the Kurds and the PKK would be dealt a serious blow. Therefore, they intervened and changed the agenda. They turned the reaction against the Turkish state into a reaction against Iran, and took Turkey and the Perex massacre off the agenda. They created a completely different agenda in Iraq and the Middle East. However, the Perex massacre is not an issue that can be removed from the agenda just like that. This massacre needs to be kept on the agenda constantly. This was not an accidental massacre. With this, they wanted to scare the people of South Kurdistan, those who stand against Turkey, to ensure that no one stands against Turkey. But Turkey has clear goals: It wants to take over Mosul, Kirkuk and all of South Kurdistan. If they seize these places, it means becoming very powerful in the politics of Iraq, so that the whole of Iraq will be at the service of the Turkish state. In order to achieve this, they seek to force the local population to flee. Because in order to develop the occupation and take power in Iraq, there want to have no one left who is against them. The Turkish state sees that Iraq is weak and that it does not have the power to stand against them. Barzani is also on their side, and even some parts of Iraq are acting together with the Turkish state. Since Turkey is a NATO member, NATO does not oppose this policy, in fact it supports it.

After the elections, they wanted to form a government with Barzani, Sadır and others. They thought that they would take over the presidency as well as the government of Iraq, and they were planning to take new steps on this basis. Even Erdogan himself said, ´A new situation will emerge in Iraq after the elections´. Turkey, Barzani and the new government, with the support of NATO, were going to eradicate the PKK and then complete the Kurdish genocide. But this plan has failed. Those who are friends with Iran and who wanted to take over the government thwarted their plan. In short, the US-related contradictions continue in Iraq. After the elections, the process did not go as they had planned. Since this plan did not materialize, Iraq has been increasingly pushed towards a civil war. It is not yet clear whether a civil war will break out or not. Those who are not in favor of civil war are trying to form a government, and they are planning to go to elections after a period with this government. However, this will not work either. Because in the last election we saw that 80 percent of the people did not vote. This shows the dissatisfaction of the people with the current parties and this kinds of politics.

The people of Iraq want fundamental changes, and they have expressed this many times. Therefore, renewing the elections will not solve the problems Iraq is facing today. There is also the possibility of civil war. If such a situation occurs in Iraq, it will lead to the disintegration of the country and lead to great dangers. Turkey is in favor of Iraq’s instability. The most important reason for the lack of stability in Iraq is Turkey. It uses its relations with Barzani and some Sunni groups. Iraq is already weak and Turkey puts Iraq under pressure and prevents a solution for the current problems. Turkey is trying to realize its goals, that is to seize Mosul and Kirkuk, by keeping Iraq weak. They are already working to achieve these goals in Iraq.

In fact, if Iraq is dragged into a spiral of civil war, they may attack Şengal and Maxmur together with Barzani, and launch more comprehensive attacks against the Medya Defense Zones. All of this is a possibility, and everyone should take precautions accordingly. If a civil war does not take place, this does not mean that this danger has disappeared and the problems have been resolved. The new government to be formed will continue the policies of Turkey, KDP and the Barzanis. This will create new problems. Therefore, Iraq is an important field for everyone, everyone has their hands in it. This causes new dangers for both Iraq and the Middle East. Preventing the disintegration of the country and developing a democratic Iraq will also affect the Middle East. It cannot be known exactly how either of these situations will evolve. Undoubtedly, we want the forces of democracy to prevent the disintegration of Iraq and to lead Iraq towards democratization. This can only be realized with Rêber Apo’s paradigm. What has been put in place so far has not solved Iraq’s problems, but it is making the problems worse, deepening the contradictions and dragging Iraq towards disintegration. It is important that we make everyone understand this reality.

In addition to Iraq, there have been important developments with regards to Syria in recent days. The Turkish state announced that it would start talks with the regime in Damascus, which was sharply criticized by the Islamist proxy forces allied with Turkey. The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria also declared a state of emergency against the Turkish attacks. How do you see this new situation in Syria?

Yes, the Rojava administration has declared a state of emergency. They have not taken such a decision without a reason. Because everybody knows under which conditions a state of emergency is generally declared in a country. They saw that there was a great danger and declared a state of emergency to prevent it, to defend their territory and their gains. This was a good decision. Because they saw that a policy and a plan were being carried out. They took such a decision to prevent this plan from being realized and to protect their freedoms. But as far as we can see, they are not acting according to the decision they themselves have taken. There is, for example, the recent martyrdom of Jiyan and other friends. They have declared a state of emergency, but are organizing meetings and conferences as if nothing has happening, as if they are in a normal phase. That friend had attended a meeting open to everyone, had made a speech there, and after leaving the meeting, she was attacked by an armed drone of the Turkish state.

Since they have declared a state of emergency, they need to live accordingly and take precautions. In such a process, there is no need for a public meeting with broad participation. If they have to hold meetings, they should do it in a different way. This is what leads to paying a big price. I believe they have learned a lesson from these recent events. They should act and work in complete secrecy. Because a death sentence has been passed against the executives and cadres there. And the Turkish state is carrying out this sentence and will continue to do so. Therefore, executives, cadres and patriots who are popular among the people should not live and act as before. They need to go completely underground, they must work underground and in secrecy. They must also make the revolutionary people’s war well-known among the people and carry out this strategy in practice. For this, they must constantly review all their preparations, thus eliminating mistakes and shortcomings. They must make themselves ready for the revolutionary people’s war in every way possible. The Turkish state is using ots technology very effectively against them and will continue to do so. Therefore, they must protect themselves against this technology. Underground preparations must be made, in cities and villages defense and underground preparations need to be made. They must reach a level where they can establish connections among themselves underground. The Turkish state cuts off their water, they should take measures for this, e.g. dig wells. They should store supplies and medicine. They should train the people in the use of weapons and make them ready for war. The people should be able to defend themselves, for this they should undergo trainings and drills. They must act with a single coordination. I guess they have learned lessons from the experiences in Efrîn. Those mistakes should not be repeated. As far as we can understand from the statements, they are making preparations for the revolutionary people’s war. This is a good development, but they also need to quickly complete the missing aspects. Have full confidence in yourselves, fight with your own means, don’t pay attention to the outside. All the different powers are part of the plans against them, they are all calculating on how to deceive them and take control of them. They may be in contact with these powers, but they should not act according to their wishes. Always listen to your self, predicate yourself on how you can defeat the plans to maintain your freedom and on how you can protect your revolution.

Now Russia and Iran are trying to dominate the whole of Syria. Turkey wants to eliminate the Kurds and is trying to develop relations with Syria on this basis. These attempts are being carried out openly and are already openly discussed in the press. However, the relations between Turkey and Syria cannot be developed so easily, the problems are not easy and cannot be solved quickly. There are very big problems. The Turkish state has pulled millions of people out of Syria, brought them to Turkey and organized among them. Now it is trying to settle them in Syria and take over the whole of Syria. They built gang [Islamist proxy forces] organizations within them, created fake armies and used them everywhere. They are also using them against Syria. Again, an Islamic government was established in Idlib by the Turkish state, they have occupied many parts of Syria and changed the demography there. These are big problems and they cannot be solved easily. Maybe Russia has put something in front of both Turkey and Syria and wants some steps to be taken. But it is doubtful how much Turkey and Syria agree with this. Syria is well aware of Turkey’s practice and politics. Turkey giving up everything and trying to befriend Syria and Syria accepting it as if nothing happened – this is not possible. Turkey is playing politics, trying to fool everyone, but it wants to achieve its own goals. I guess everyone knows this and Syria knows it too. I don’t think Syria will join hands with Turkey and become an enemy of the Kurds. If it does that, Syria will lose, there will be no Syria left. If Syria does not want its country to disintegrate and if it wants there to be a country called Syria, the way to do this is through friendship with the Kurds. When it solves the Kurdish problem, it can avoid all dangers. Turkey knows this and is trying to foster enmity between Syria and the Kurds in order to achieve its goals there. The only situation that can protect Syria and defeat Turkey’s plans is friendship with the Kurds. Syria is already saying, ´We can solve our problems if Turkey withdraws from the territories it occupies, dismantles the organization it has formed from gangs and does not give weapons to these structures.´ Syria’s statement that it will not start the process of relations with Turkey if these conditions are not met is appropriate in our opinion.

In short, the problems in Syria will continue. Therefore, our people must complete their preparations for war in order to defend themselves in every way possible. Whether Turkey attacks alone or together with Syria, our people can defend themselves. There is no other way. They must believe in this and prepare themselves in every aspect. They must make this a way of life for themselves. They will live their lives in war, they will be able to defend themselves and they will get their rights. Nobody will give them their rights, only they themselves can take them.

Youth organizations with different names have emerged in Kurdistan and Turkey to fight against AKP-MHP fascism. They are carrying out attacks against the politics of genocide. How do you see these organizations and attacks?

Yes, some attacks have taken place. I salute and congratulate those who are carrying out these attacks. They need to carry out even stronger attacks. What they have done so far is not enough. There is a fascist government which is conducting a heavy politics of oppression. But this does not mean that there cannot be strong attacks against them. No matter how much injustice, oppression, torture, plunder, death and injustice there is in a place, there must be strong actions there. This is the right thing to do. There are many examples of this in the world. The stronger fascism was, the stronger the resistance against it was which finally brought an end to fascism. This is what is required of democrats and socialists. Those who stand against fascism should take this as a basis. Everyone can organize actions against fascism according to their own means. These actions can be marches and protests, or attacks against the government and state institutions, agents and police.

Not only young men but also young women are carrying out these attacks. I salute and congratulate them. They need to make their actions and attacks stronger. They are not enough. Our friends in Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna are showing great heroism under very difficult conditions. These young men and women have better opportunities and conditions than our friends in Zap. They can carry out stronger actions and attacks. This is what is asked of them. They should not leave those heroes alone.

This regime is on the verge of collapse, they don’t have the control they used to have, they are struggling with many problems among themselves. When one thinks about it, one can carry out very good actions. Also, almost all of the attacks so far have been similar to each other. One can carry out much more different actions and attacks. There are opportunities for this. We want them to carry out actions and attacks, they can reach the guerrilla for this. If they cannot reach the guerrilla they should be able to defend themselves. But they can increase the level of their actions and attacks even more. The state has promoted denunciation and espionage, maybe that’s why they are afraid. However, it is possible to take precautions. There are those who know each other well, who are good friends with each other. Thus, they can protect themselves from agents and informers. Those who know each other well can carry out actions and attacks secretly in small cells. They don’t need to openly say ´we did this´ and thus expose themselves. It is enough if they inform the press. Thus, they can deal a huge blow to the enemy, agents and informers cannot get in and denounce them, and in this way they can protect themselves.