our interviews

Let us first start with the situation of the Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan. What can you tell us about the latest developments regarding his situation and the struggle for his physical freedom? How do you assess the role of the responsible international, especially European, institutions?

Rêber Apo¹ has been kept under solitary confinement for more than nine years now. Other than the one or two brief, very restricted interactions in between, the past nine years have been a course of total isolation. In actuality, the Imrali system—which has been in place for 25 years now—is a system of aggravated solitary confinement. There was a period in which the Turkish state created the impression that it was open to negotiations with Rêber Apo, but it soon became clear that the Turkish state had no such intent.

Those who carry the responsibility for the severity of the isolation being imposed on Rêber Apo is Europe, particularly the ‘European Court of Human Rights’ (ECHR), the ‘Council of Europe’ (CoE), and the ‘European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment’ (CPT). It was they who established this order, in coordination with the USA and Turkey. Again, it was Europe and the USA who carried out the international conspiracy² and abducted Rêber Apo to Turkey. Turkey itself had made no effort to take Rêber Apo prisoner. If it were not for the attitude of the European Union or the approach of the United States, there was nothing Turkey could have done. Rêber Apo was lured into this trap by the members of the European Parliament and the Greek Parliament. He went to Greece and then to Italy with the idea that he could find a political solution in Europe, but Europe did not accept this. They have even bent their own laws to achieve this. The German state had issued a case against Rêber Apo, but even when he went to Europe, the German state did not prosecute him. Instead, they chose to be a part of the plan to conspiratorially and illegally abduct him and hand him over to Turkey. Rêber Apo’s request for political refugee status was rejected across Europe. Thousands of PKK sympathizers and supporters were granted political refugee rights in Europe, but not Rêber Apo. They did not grant status to Rêber Apo.

The US played leading role in the abducting of Rêber Apo and handing him over to Turkey. It was, in fact, they who instructed Turkey to construct such a system of isolation. They wanted such an order to be established. In view of these facts, the European Union and the USA are directly responsible for this system of total isolation. They are responsible for the policies being developed on Imrali over these past 25 years.

Ömer Öcalan and his lawyers visited the CPT. After this meeting, the CPT was forced to release a press-statement, and they even gave a press conference. They used the pretext that they “cannot explain” unless Turkey gives its approval. This actually shows how much manipulation there is on the CPT. To avoid responsibility, they said “if there are cases of human rights violations in Imrali, the ECHR is responsible.”

The ECHR has based itself on state-interest. All their notions and tenets of human rights, law, and justice come to an end when they cross the ECHR’s political interests. Especially when it comes to the Kurdish question, the only approach of the ECHR is based on political interests. There was once a European writer and journalist who wrote a book called “Kurds without Lawyers.” What they mean is that the Kurds are defenseless. In this sense, it is important to increase public pressure. A legal struggle can and should be waged against the CPT, but in order to get results, we need to pressure them to take responsibility for Rêber Apo.

The global freedom campaign aiming for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo needs to be raised to a new level. If this is done, then we will achieve results. Otherwise, it is not enough to just make calls and tell people what to do. We need to create public pressure with our struggle and our stance in a way that will force the ECHR and the CPT to take steps. If their practices and their mentality are exposed, if this reaches a point where they question their own reason for being, then of course their attitude will have to change. We need to develop the campaign for the freedom of Rêber Apo.

Rêber Apo is being embraced all across the globe, and this will grow even more. We need to believe in this and develop it even further. Particularly women will embrace Rêber Apo even more because they understand this reality. With his thought, philosophy, theory, and approach, Rêber Apo reveals the real history of women, reveals the true stance of struggle, reveals the line of women’s freedom, and fully exposes the male-dominated system. In this respect, women will embrace Rêber Apo even more.

While Rêber Apo is being embraced so strongly by women across the world, it is impossible that he is kept in prison forever. With the struggle of women is it possible to break the pressures and chains being imposed on Rêber Apo. Undoubtedly, all humanity embraces this struggle, but it is particularly women who take a leading role because with they have not been contaminated by sovereignty or power. Since they have been the main force that has been exploited and oppressed, they are more conscientious, more just, and fairer. This embracement of the struggle will envelope all of humanity. Then the CPT will definitely be forced to take the correct stance and the ECHR will also play or remember its role. Rêber Apo will be liberated through such a struggle.

In this respect, all democratic forces and peoples, especially Kurds, must embrace Rêber Apo. Embracing Rêber Apo is not only the task of the Kurdish people, it is the task of the democratic forces, of all humanity. Because he is a leader that serves all of humanity through his thoughts, efforts for the freedom of all, for democratic life. He demonstrates this with his approach to life and his attitude. We believe that Rêber Apo will be embraced even more and that he will be liberated.

April is now slowly coming to an end and we are moving into May, which is a very important month for socialist movements in general, but especially for your movement. Why is that so?

Particularly because of Haki Karer³, May is the month of martyrs for us. Also, other very valuable friends and comrades gave their lives within this month. On May 2nd, there were the martyrdoms of Mehmet Karasungur⁴ and Ibrahim Bilgin⁵. On May 6th, there were the executions of Deniz Gezmis, Huseyin Inan and Yusuf Aslan⁶. On May 9th, four revolutionaries were executed by Iran. May 11^th marks the martyrdom of comrade Mizgîn⁷. On May 14^th, the martyrdom of Leyla Qasim⁸ and her friends. On May 17th there was the martyrdom of ‘The Four’, Ferhat Kurtay, Eşref Aynet, Mahmut Zengin and Necmi Öner⁹. On May 18th, the martyrdom of Haki Karer and Ibrahim Kaypakkaya¹⁰. On May 27th, there was the martyrdom of Kasim Engin¹¹. On May 31, there was the martyrdom of Sinan Cemgil¹² and his friends. There is also the martyrdom of comrade Deniz from Dogubayazit¹³, who was martyred on May 21. I commemorate all these friends and all revolutionary martyrs with gratitude and respect.

Our struggle has constantly developed because of the martyrs who gave their lives. It was our martyrs who paved the way for this struggle. Because the struggle is carried out under very difficult conditions, it can only be developed through sacrifice, by putting one’s own life on the line. Just like this, all kinds of obstacles can be overcome. The martyrs have a very important place in the freedom struggle. They are the pioneers. They are not just some people who lost their lives in a war. Against a very harsh, genocidal colonialism, in an area like the Middle East, they developed the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom by putting their lives on the line. The martyrdom in the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom must be understood and valued correctly.

We need to remember very well the ideological, political, ethical, moral, and conscientious aspects and the passion for freedom in the martyrs. If the month of martyrs is remembered in this way, then we really give meaning to the martyrs. In fact, if we understand the martyrs, it will be possible for us to conduct a great struggle. The comrades who understand our martyrs, our organizational structure, our organization as a whole, and our people as a whole will wage a great struggle and overcome all obstacles.

Our struggle is unprecedented in the world. Of course, there have been sacrificial struggles in other countries, but our struggle is constantly sustained in this way. We are not conducting just some basic struggle. We are waging a struggle based entirely on sacrifice, and this is very conscious. Progress was always made when there was sacrifice. It paves the way for our struggle. In this respect, Rêber Apo said, “The PKK is the party of martyrs.” It is like this because the PKK grows with its martyrs. Without our martyrs and without the struggle of the martyrs, our struggle would not have developed. In this regard, I would like to once again commemorate all our martyrs with gratitude and respect.

Now that May 1st is approaching, what can you tell us on the occasion of this important day?

May 1st is a really important day. It is probably the only day celebrated unilaterally by all people at the same time. It is an important day of common struggle, a day of united celebration, a day that carries the common values of humanity. While evaluating May 1st, we need to understand the value it carries for humanity.

May 1st was recognized as a holiday, a day of struggle, by the Second International in 1889. It has been celebrated all over the world ever since. The struggle behind it must be pointed out. The resistance of the workers started in 1886, for 8-hour workdays. Then in 1877, events grew. After this period of resistance, 4 of their leaders were executed. May 1st is based on the resistance of those who got executed on this day.

After that day, workers succeeded in getting the 8-hour working day. And it became a day of struggle against exploitation and oppression. It has been celebrated since 1899. From that day until today, including in Turkey, there have been great struggles and high prices have been paid on May 1st all over the world. Every year, working people are increasingly struggling for liberation from capitalist modernity, from exploitation, and oppression. With each year the passion for freedom, independence, and the struggle against exploitation has increased. In addition to being the struggle of all workers and laborers, it has evolved into the struggle for rights, justice, and equality. Thus, this struggle was assigned as a duty to all societies, against oppression and tyranny.

In Turkey, May 1st has always been celebrated with such a spirit of struggle. The Turkish state once tried to turn it into some kind of spring festival, but of course the people didn’t accept this. Eventually, May 1st became the day of workers and laborers.

The slaughter of 34 laborers and workers in Turkey on May 1, 1977, took place right in front of my eyes. At the time of the attacks, we were directly beneath the Taksim statue. We carried the wounded and the dead in taxis and small vans and sent them to hospitals. After that, May 1st was banned in Turkey, but despite this, there were various forms of resistance even after the coup d’état on September 12. Like I pointed out, May 1st in Turkey has always been a day of struggle.

This day should be regarded as a festive day of socialism. It is a day to struggle for socialism against the individualism and exploitation of capitalism. It is a day when the struggle to achieve socialism, and the utopia of this is expressed. It should be understood in this way. 125 years of struggle have turned May 1st into a day of such meaning. Of course, it is necessary to spread and deepen the understanding of socialism amongst society and to approach it with a stance that further develops this consciousness, the program, and the struggle for it.

May 1st is a day to discuss how the struggle for democratic socialism will be waged against capitalism and how socialism will be achieved. It should also be seen as a day on which the aspiration, determination, program, and ideological-theoretical line of socialism are put forward in the right way. In this respect, May 1st should be understood not only as a day of solidarity, not only as a day to take to the streets and chant slogans, but also as a day to renew consciousness, eliminate deficiencies, and develop the right understanding of struggle.

This is how we understand this day. Of course, from our point of view, we also see May 1st as a day of common struggle between the Kurdish people and the peoples of Turkey. Indeed, revolutionaries, democrats, and socialists in Turkey have always longed for this. They have always understood the need to develop the common struggle of the Kurdish and Turkish peoples.

The democratic forces and laborers in Turkey were crushed and silenced by the fascism that followed the military coup d’état on September 12, 1980. In fact, when the AKP was brought to power to complete that which had been initiated on September 12, it paved the way for these Fethullahists, these political Islamists. They did this in order to bring political Islamists and the state together, to suppress the Kurdish freedom movement and the struggle of the Kurdish people, to isolate the Kurds, and to crush the left. Through our struggle, September 12 was interrupted to a certain extent. Now with Erdogan, they want to achieve what they could not do in the last decades.

When Rêber Apo evaluated this, he said that the current politics were a continuation of September 12 but its methods had been adapted to liberal conditions. This is how Rêber Apo evaluates the process in his prison writings. In practice, this has proved to be true.

When we look back, we see that Newroz and the March 8^th events were strongly participated by the people, who also took an important stance in the municipal elections. This May 1st, we need to raise the struggle even more. It is necessary to break the environment of oppression and exploitation which had been intensified through September 12. We must strengthen the struggle for freedom and democracy in Turkey. Such a new process is needed.

This May 1st should be seen as the beginning of a period in which all the remnants of September 12 are wiped clean. On this basis, the Kurdish people, the people of Turkey, laborers and women ought to raise their struggle for freedom and democracy. I call on all Kurdish people to take to the streets on May 1st and to raise the struggle together with the peoples of Turkey, laborers, workers and particularly the women.

To take a look back at the municipal elections in North Kurdistan and Turkey; How do you evaluate them? Do you share the view that the AKP has lost and a new era has dawned in Turkey?

I think the outcomes of the municipal elections on March 31st need to be evaluated thoroughly. Especially the Kurdish people and the democratic forces need to analyze this well. With these elections, the liberalized form of September 12th was to be brought to power. A new Turkey was to be created. In fact, Erdogan was going to create the Turkey that was aimed for via the coup d’état on September 12. This is how this government should be evaluated. But here is the government 22 years later, clearly not having achieved its aims. Especially in the last nine years, the partnership between the AKP and MHP has really descended on the peoples of Turkey like a nightmare. An order of unprecedented oppression was established, and it oppressed both the Kurdish and Turkish people likewise. The AKP-MHP created polarization in Turkish society with a policy that is unprecedented anywhere in the world, no other fascist country has done this.

There is a situation where one neighbor is looking at the other as if it were an enemy. Special warfare has been applied to the whole society. Should this not have lasted so long, maybe society would have been able to bear it. But such a prolonged special war was waged that society showed a great reaction to it. In fact, we can say that the reason why the AKP government regressed so much on March 31st was actually the revolt inspired by the righteous values of society. Rights, justice, law, conscience, and equality; these values exist solely in society. The society rebelled because all these values were under heavy attack. There was oppression and exploitation.

Of course, the AKP-MHP fascist government lost, and this loss really started a new course in Turkey. In fact, the presidential and parliamentary elections in May 2023 produced similar results. The government cheated and played games there too. Since then, the government did nothing to alleviate the discomfort in society. Instead, they became comfortable because of their success in previous elections. In actuality, they had lost the elections then too. We need to see it like this. How else would it be possible to explain that there has been such a huge change within ten months? I mean, the shift existed before. I want to point this out: the elections were rigged. The people of Turkey really breathed a sigh of relief in these elections. And this aspect is very important. The idea that the AKP could not be defeated seems almost unchallenged. It had tied the whole society to itself with its special war. This has been broken.

There is a quote by Abraham Lincoln, it is actually a really good saying: “You can fool some of the people all the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time”. Because society is a historical phenomenon. The individual may be affected here and there, but in terms of the integrity of society, in terms of its sense of rights, justice, and equality, society has always had the high ground. We saw this in the election. In this regard, the election has been a great victory. But one should not assume that everything will change just through elections. Bahceli openly said, “We did not build this country with a ballot box.” Erdogan carries the same mindset. Erdogan is not at a point to give up his power; they are not democrats.

These elections should not be regarded a complete success, but as a beginning. It would be a mistake to think that this election would fix everything. In this election, the democratic tendency of society came through. This is, in a way, the success of the democratic front. We should see it like that. It was the united stance of the democratic part of society that showed its power in these elections, it was also the attitude of the Kurdish people.

The Kurdish people stood against the trustee policy. They already wanted to take the local administration of their own lands. They want to govern their own cities in Kurdistan locally. But there is a fundamental problem for the Kurds. The main task of the Kurdish people is to find a democratic solution to the Kurdish question. The Kurds have been waging a great struggle for democracy, for more than 40–50 years. They are struggling for the freedom of the Kurdish people, and at the same time, they are struggling for the democratization of Turkey. Because the Kurdish question cannot be solved without the democratization of Turkey.

In this respect, if we ask why the Kurds showed such an attitude in the election and why they united with all those who want democracy, the answer is clear. Because the Kurdish question can only be solved through the democratization of Turkey. In this respect, Kurds base their attitude on whether democratization will develop or not. The election is not about the election of this or that party or the victory of this or that party. Will democratization develop, or not? Will the tendency towards democratization rise in Turkish society? These are the main questions. The attitude of the Kurds is based on this.

As we have stated before, it is not like one person will come and solve the Kurdish question. Such an expectation simply shows a misconception of the reality of Turkey. It means that the Kurdish policy of the Turkish state has not been understood. Will there be a break in Turkey? Will it democratize? The answers to these questions may bring us closer to the solution to the question. One who thinks that the Kurdish question will be solved without the democratization of Turkey, or that someone who is not democratic will come and solve it, shows that the enemy has not been understood. We are facing those who want to commit genocide against the Kurds, against the Kurdish reality, and dominate them. What they want is to completely destroy the Kurds. This is their basic, fundamental policy. This can only change with a democratic mentality. In this respect, when asked why the Kurds made that choice, the answer is clear. However, if Turkey democratizes, if the votes of the people serve democratization, then it is because of the attitude of the Kurds. Because for the Kurds it does not matter who is elected, it matters whether there is a development towards the democratization of Turkey or not.

On the other hand, we need to look at what needs to be done now. The elections took place, the CHP came to power. One cannot expect too much from them. Of course, the people have demands because the CHP became the first party as a result of the joint attitude of all democratic forces. There are expectations, there are clear demands of the people and of society. It is necessary to develop the struggle for democratization. It is necessary to pave the way for this. If this is the case, a positive process can be evaluated correctly. If the results are evaluated in this way, progress will be made regarding Turkey’s democratization. The same applies to the solution to the Kurdish question.

Of course, political parties should be put under pressure; it is necessary that they are answerable to the demands of democratization. One of the aims of an organized society is to exert influence on politics, to direct and lead politics. That is what society wants. When it comes to the reality of Turkey, it is necessary to struggle for its democratization. It is necessary to build alliances for this. It is necessary to develop ways and methods of struggle for this. The struggle for democracy cannot be developed without alliances. Democratization will not develop in Turkey if Kurds just say that they will elect their own municipalities in Kurdistan, and that is it. In this respect, we need to make use of the current environment for the democratization of the whole of Turkey.

The organized power, alliances, and struggles of society will change a lot. Wan is full of very important lessons. Why did they give Abdullah Zeydan the certificate of registration in Wan? They gave it to him as a result of a great struggle. The people in Wan stood up for this. The democratic forces supported Zeydan. All the socialist forces supported him. The opposition within the system also supported the attitude of the people of Wan, they did not accept the government’s policy. It did not accept the usurping of that certificate. It is necessary to be aware of this. If it weren’t for this resistance, trustees would have been appointed not only in Wan but also in other municipalities in Kurdistan. Each of them would have been deprived of their municipality for this or that reason. When the ‘Supreme Election Council’ (YSK) announced that Abdullah Zeydan should be given the certificate, it knew that if it had not, Amed, Elîh, Şirnex, Şirnex, Qers, Colemêrg, and all Kurdish provinces would have risen up. The whole of Kurdistan would have been like Wan.

The Turkish intelligence service (MIT) gave a report in which they stated that if the certificate was not given within the following few hours, all Kurdish cities, especially Amed, would rebel until iftar the latest. The MIT gave this report to Erdogan, and of course, in order to avoid such a situation, Erdogan immediately told the chairman of the YSK to give Abdullah Zeydan the certificate. Erdogan later gave a statement, shamelessly saying: “Some terrorist organizations were trying to provoke, and we prevented it.”.

The struggle of Wan and the attitude of the people in Sirnex and other cities were effective. In fact, the government had made a decision before the elections. They were going to appoint trustees, just like in 2019. But they were too weak in the election. The opposition got stronger, and the CHP became the first party. More precisely, Turkish society reacted against the AKP and MHP; they showed a tendency toward democratization which weakened the current government’s hand. In this process, when the people of Wan stood up, this affected the whole of Kurdistan. In return, the government was forced to take a step back. This happened with the development of struggle and alliances. In fact, the Wan resistance created a natural alliance. This is very valuable. What needs to be done now is to develop the alliance of democracy. There was the Alliance of Labor and Freedom; it needs to be expanded further.

I want to emphasize this point. Those who oppose the alliance policy are those who want to weaken the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. Consciously or unconsciously, it does not matter. The policy of forming alliances must be appreciated and developed. There may be shortcomings and mistakes, but let’s develop alliances. Let’s include every part of society. This cannot be done by simply saying that we will only organize ourselves without alliances. We will make strong alliances by organizing ourselves. If we don’t organize ourselves, we cannot form strong alliances. But not much could be achieved if we only organize ourselves. We need to develop our organization in Turkey through alliances, we need to expand. We need to attach great importance to this. There are narrow, inadequate approaches in this regard; we need to overcome them. If we want to democratize Turkey and solve the Kurdish question on the basis of democratization, then we need to attach great importance to this alliance policy. This is to be done on a very broad spectrum. It may be true that you cannot agree on everything, this is a reality, but one needs to be aware that, all over the world, democracy has always developed through alliances.

The struggle against reactionism, fascism, and authoritarian regimes is based on alliances. So, what should be done from now on? We need to improve our organization. We need to develop our organization in Turkey and in North Kurdistan. We particularly need to organize the youth and women, and while doing so, we need to develop alliances both in Kurdistan and Turkey. Importance should be given to the alliances in Kurdistan and Turkey likewise. Approaches that do not value the alliances in Turkey are wrong. All other political parties in Kurdistan should seek alliances with democratic forces in Turkey. If this happens, I think the outcomes of these elections will be great. If there is no united struggle, the AKP and MHP government will continue with their oppressive policies.

If the government in Turkey does not have a democratic mentality, if it cannot put forward a democratic solution and approach to the Kurdish question, then it will attack the struggle of the Kurdish people. Because the Turkish state’s reality—whether it be its laws or its constitution—is built on suppressing the Kurdish people’s struggle for liberation.

It is different when there is no struggle, but if there is a struggle, which there is now, then of course they will attack. We evaluated even before the elections that they would attack no matter what the outcome of the elections was. It was said that they might soften their approach after the elections, this is wrong. Détente happens only if the mentality is democratic. People ask questions likes: “Will the war against the Kurdish people be stopped?” or “Will the democratic organization and democratic struggle of the Kurdish people be accepted?” There is no such thing at the moment. Just the other day the Minister of Justice said, if you act the way we tell you, then we will allow you to exist. In other words, he’s saying to give up being Kurdish. He criticizes the DEM Party. Why? Because the DEM Party defends Kurdishness, because they want the Kurdish problem to be solved.

Back when the government appointed trustees to Kurdish municipalities, what was the first thing they did? First of all, they closed all Kurdish and women’s institutions. Their oppression continued because it was not opposed. What was their justification? Separatism. Their justification was always “homeland-nation-Sakarya”.

Now they’re putting the flag on the agenda, this is incorrect. Rêber Apo spoke about his position regarding the flag 30 years ago. He said that we have no problem with it. The problem is not the flag but the chauvinist connotation attached to it, the problem is the “Homeland-nation-Sakarya” mindset. They want to influence society by manipulating them through the flag. They want to increase the pressure by saying, “Look, this is what was done to our flag.”

Now they are discussing the constitution in an environment where such resentments are intensifying. You have imprisoned thousands of politicians, you use the judiciary and the courts as a beating stick, you use all kinds of oppression. People are being arrested every day. For 7 years Erdogan has been arbitrarily arresting people. Why would you put an 80-year-old woman in prison? Erdogan is killing sick people in prisons. The message he is sending to the Kurds is this: “Look, we are ready to kill all of you. If you struggle, this is how we will respond.” In such an environment of oppression, a constitutional debate will be held.

The point of a constitution is that it makes a state more democratic. Only the leftists and democrats demanded the abolition of the September 12^th constitution. They have been voicing the need for a new constitution for over 40 years now. Since the 82nd Constitution, the Kurds have been voicing the need for change the most for a democratic solution. Erdogan and Bahceli also want a change of constitution but their aim is to develop one which is worse than the September 12 constitution. If they don’t even implement their current constitution, how could they be expected to implement a new one?

Of course, the Kurds want a new constitution more than anyone else because the characteristics of the current one is completely based on the Kurdish genocide. This is the essence of the current constitution. Turkey has a single-article constitution, all the other articles depend on it. And what is that one article? The genocide of the Kurds. Therefore, of course, Kurds want it to change, but there is no democratic mentality or ground for this at the moment. That democratic environment needs to be created; everyone needs to put forward their thoughts in this regard. Kurds are criticized as soon as they open their mouths because they speak Kurdish, what they call an “unknown language.” How will there be a democratic constitution when you do not even accept the existence of the Kurdish language? How can there be a constitution without Kurds expressing their rights and demands on a democratic basis? First of all, a democratic environment must be created. Otherwise, the ongoing discussions are meaningless. The process of making a constitution should be seen as a struggle for democratization. This struggle for democratization will lead to a constitution that the Kurds want.

Ozgur Ozel said something about Erdogan, that he is a good politician but a bad person. It is obvious that Erdogan is a bad person because he established his regime through evil. He has not left a single wrong-doing over the last nine or ten years, he has done all kinds of evil to the societies of Turkey. But Erdogan is not a good politician. He is a mercenary of special, psychological warfare. He uses the entire country’s resources for special warfare in order to keep his own power and suppress democrats, as well as the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. This is what Erdogan thinks about day and night. What he thinks about day and night is evil. We have seen this for the last nine, ten years.

Erdogan must be understood like this. A bad person can never be a good politician. This can clearly be said about Erdogan who presents himself as a religious person. He has no religion because he has no conscience. The main aspect of religion is that it appeals to conscience and to justice. Erdoğan has nothing to do with this. That is why he has no religion. The most fundamental characteristics of religions are rights, justice, law, and conscience. Billions of people have adopted these religions because they truly follow these values. Does Erdogan follow them?

We don’t know what the results of the Erdogan-Ozel meeting will be, but we are certain that Erdogan will bring up the Kurdish question. He will try to influence Ozel by saying that the Kurds are dividing Turkey, that they are the enemies of Turkey. He will invite Ozel to take a common stance against separatism, “let’s fight together” Erdogan will say. This is already a trap. This is enmity against democracy. Uniting against the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom means to oppose democracy. Erdogan will lure Ozgur Ozel into enmity of democracy. We will see what the outcome will be.

The peoples of Turkey have rejected the policies of AKP-MHP. They took a stance against the current government and did not vote for them. The attitude of the people is as obvious as is the AKP-MHP’s attitude. The people really want democratization. They want the current policies to stop, they are fed up. Of course, from the opposition, they expect not the continuation of the current policy but instead an attitude against that policy; a different policy that will meet the democratization aspirations of the people of Turkey.

Erdogan’s attempts to seek allies on an international level are continuing. Most recently, he visited Baghdad and Hewlêr [Erbil]. How do you assess this?

We are following the negotiations between the AKP-MHP government and Erdogan in Iraq and South Kurdistan. We received some information in this regard. Iraq has shown a certain compromise and flexibility on some issues, but it did not accept everything Turkey said. It is necessary to be aware of this. Turkey did achieve the success they are propagandizing on Turkish television. They did not achieve the very important results they keep talking about.

At the moment, the most unreliable politician in the world is Erdogan, and the most unreliable government is the AKP-MHP one. How can anyone trust them? Erdogan had relations with Syria, and what he did there is obvious. What kind of policy did he pursue in Syria? He is the biggest source of chaos there. He is making the Turkish-affiliated gangs attack everywhere. Also, his relations with Egypt are like this. What he did in Libya is obvious as well. Erdogan is a very unreliable politician. It is wrong to expect that the AKP-MHP government will get great results from their initiatives and that it will get very strategic, long-term results. Nobody trusts them. Iraq doesn’t trust them either.

The AKP-MHP regime actually wants to legitimize its expansion policy through the “development road”. As soon as Turkey finds the opportunity, when they find a weakness in a neighboring country, they will invade it. They exploit all resources yet, still, they do not leave. The Iraqis know this. The Arabs have learned this very well. Everyone has learned Erdogan’s politics. Russia also knows what the AKP-MHP government is and tries to use it. We do not think that the Turkish government has achieved much. They have made some compromises, such as a joint fight against terrorism, an agreement on some economic issues. But how will this unfold in practice? In practice, Iraq is not in a position to do what they claim.

Although there is a tendency in the government of Iraqi Prime Minister Sudani to establish closer relations with Turkey, a majority of the other political parties are against Turkey. I don’t believe that Sudani trusts Turkey. We know that they haven’t achieved much in this direction, but we need to be careful and cautious. If Iraq does really follow Turkey, it will be the first to lose. It will realize that this relationship with the Turkish state will cost it dearly. But we don’t think that it will come to this point. We don’t think that the stated struggle against us and economic agreements will yield much results.

Finally, a question regarding the current attacks and the threats of possible new operations. How do you evaluate this situation?

Of course, the Turkish state is attacking and continues to attack. I’m convinced that they will increase their attacks. They particularly target the Medya Defense Zones. They are attacking Xakurkê and there is a possibility of an operation in Gare. Certain attacks will continue, but the resistance against this will also continue. This needs to be clear. Erdogan should not think that he will enter, just by saying “I will enter.” It is not that easy. Doing this is not as easy as simply saying it. When the time of war comes and they are facing the guerrilla, it will not be easy for them to achieve their goals.

They are using the KDP. Their forces wanted to advance in some places but they stumbled upon resistance. The KDP cannot do this, and they should know this. If the KDP continues like this, they will face a war between us and the KDP. The guerrilla is patient and careful, but if the KDP continues, there will definitely be a response. They should know this. The KDP is pushing the line. As a matter of fact, the guerrilla has responded to the KDP before and will respond again. They should not expect the guerrilla to tolerate their behavior. If they continue, they should be ready to bear the consequences.

As the AKP-MHP attacks to achieve the genocide of the Kurdish people in their homelands, the attacks against Kurds increases in the diaspora too. There is no need to evaluate the attacks against Kurdish television too much. These are openly fascist attacks because only fascists would do this. It is almost as if this is the duty of a section within NATO. Brussels is the center of NATO. Is this what France wanted? The Minister of Justice must answer for this. The former Minister of Justice gave a statement in this regard, he said: “To act in such a self-interested way means to lose humanity.” They exposed themselves in this way. It is impossible for them to get results. The press will continue doing their job, they have already voiced this.

The whole of Europe should think about this raid, the method, and the form of the raid. They must see what they are doing. This means openly supporting the Turkish state’s genocide of Kurds and being a partner in its crime. This should not be regarded as a simple raid against the press and television. It means being a partner in the Kurdish genocide. It means supporting the genocide policy of the Turkish State. They have fallen into this situation. The AKP government and those behind it cannot survive. European society will not accept this. The journalistic struggle continues, no one can stop it.

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