our interviews

The DEM Party delegation has now traveled to Imrali for the second time and held talks with People’s Leader Abdullah Ocalan. It seems that there are two diametrically opposed approaches to the ongoing process. On the one hand, there are Abdullah Ocalan’s efforts to actually work out a solution, and on the other hand, there is the AKP government, which is taking a stance that it is not prepared to make any negotiations or concessions and that the only way forward is to lay down arms. How do you assess the current situation?

As you said, a few days ago Omer Celik, MP of the AKP, said in a speech: “There is no bargaining, no negotiation, no concessions. The PKK must lay down its arms”. Such speeches are based on denying the existence and rights of the Kurdish people. In history, this mentality has caused assimilation, massacres, and genocide against the Kurdish people. Both Omer Celik and the AKP are very well aware that Turkey’s most fundamental and serious issue is the Kurdish question. Without it, Turkey’s situation and problems would be different. It is their denialist mentality that has caused great suffering to the Kurdish people over the past one hundred years. Massacres, exile, execution, genocide, burning, and pillaging of thousands of villages are the result of this mentality. The cost to Turkey and the Turkish state has been heavy. The fact that the Turkish state is in a deep crisis today, that it is subservient to the international system, and that Turkish society is experiencing deep economic, social, and political problems is because the Kurdish question has not been resolved. By insisting on this historic denialist mentality, they will always get the same result. And that is undoubtedly a great danger.

Against this very mentality, Rêber Apo¹ has always wanted to put forward an approach of solving the Kurdish question politically and democratically through negotiations. Back then, former president of Turkey Turgut Ozal wanted to understand the issue and approach it seriously, but what happened to him is known. He gave his life for this. At that time, Jalal Talabani played a mediatorial role, and Rêber Apo wanted to develop a process. After that process was broken with the death of Ozal, a massive immoral war was launched by the Turkish state, and the PKK resisted with a great will and sacrificial spirit, and this still continues today. Most recently, in 2013, Rêber Apo again focused on preparing the ground for a political and legal solution. The Turkish state and the AKP also participated in this. At that time, Rêber Apo drew attention to very important points. He emphasized that the Turkish Grand National Assembly must put this issue on its agenda. Official commissions should be established, legal changes should be made, and most importantly, the process should be legally recognized. Rêber Apo had so many doubts regarding the government’s stance that he told the delegation that visited him: “If a legal and political basis for this process is not established, they may arrest you and throw you into prison.” And it exactly happened like this.

Looking at today’s situation, one can see some repetition here. Omer Celik says that there is no bargaining, no negotiations, and no concessions. Well, so what is there? They only repeat over and over that the PKK should lay down its arms, that Rêber Apo should make a call so that the PKK lays down arms. Rêber Apo highlighted it in 2013, and he did it again today – as long as he is not physically free, as the heavy isolation is not lifted, and as the conditions do not change, no step can be taken. If the Turkish state, the AKP want to achieve anything, if they give meaning to the democratic solution that Rêber Apo has developed with great efforts, they must first of all show that they are serious. They need to take a serious approach to the issue that has caused the Kurdish people to suffer for one hundred years and has cost Turkey heavily. In the last talks, Rêber Apo said: “I want to remove the economic and political shackles and want to open the way for Turkey. Turkey will democratize. It should not be threatened or oppressed by its neighbors or be weak-willed in the face of international powers.” While this is what Rêber Apo wants to achieve, the AKP is approaching recklessly from above and even threatening, trying to blackmail and impose conditions. This is not a smart way and will not serve the solution in any way. First of all, the AKP must show a serious approach and put an end to the isolation.

In order for Rêber Apo to be able to play his role, there must be no pressure, and he has to be able to meet with his comrades, with officials of the DEM Party, and with all kinds of people and organizations freely. In this way he can play his historic role and pave the way for Turkey. Rêber Apo’s demands are very reasonable. It is the democratization of Turkey and the general development of democracy in the region. Can any human being, any democrat, or any person who adheres to human values oppose this? But the AKP has been giving negative signs so far. Rêber Apo had warned in 2013: “I am ready to play such a role, make this effort, and even take risks to establish a way of life in free co-existence of the Kurdish and Turkish people in a democratic way, but the Turkish state sees me as a tool; it is not serious.” We don’t want the same thing to happen again. If they try to use Rêber Apo as a tool, the Turkish state will not be able to take any step forward, and everything will be turned upside down. The Turkish state must be serious first and foremost and respond to Rêber Apo’s calls. We, the Kurdish people and their international friends, know that whatever Rêber Apo says, whatever steps he takes, he does it for an honorable, democratic solution. The democratization of Turkey and the freedom of the Kurdish people – Rêber Apo has no proposals other than this, he does not take any steps other than in this direction. As the freedom movement and the Kurdish people, we are always loyal to Rêber Apo. But also outside the Turkish state, a wide variety of individuals and institutions must take responsibility for the future of Turkish society and the Kurdish people and make efforts for this. They must fight against the genocidal and denialist mentality. If this does not happen, there will just be a repetition of what has already been experienced.

Just the other day the government once again appointed a trustee for a municipality. This time in Sert (tr. Siirt). They detained press workers and journalists and threw them in prison. This is how they put pressure on society. They want to take away the space for any Kurdish politics. Then again, their war against Rojava rages 24/7. They do not follow any morality or domestic or international law. They bomb everywhere and deliberately massacre civilians, including women and children. And while doing so, they say that they want a process to develop. That is a contradiction in terms.

It is not wise for the AKP to try to play with the mind and will of the Kurdish people. The Kurdish people are an experienced and conscious people who have paid a high price to get so far. Same accounts for the PKK correspondingly. The government has to approach Rêber Apo with respect and seriousness. Because he is serious and does everything according to what he says. Rêber Apo is honest, and so should his interlocutors be. As I said, if they adopt an approach like in 2013 and before, it will break the Turkish state. Our movement, our people, and our international friends must have a clear picture of the developments. We will not approach this process carelessly. Just as Rêber Apo wants to develop the process in a serious way, if we express our demands seriously, the process will move forward. But we must never become complacent. We must raise our struggle unceasingly everywhere. For example, the global freedom campaign for Rêber Apo’s physical freedom should be developed more strongly not only in Europe, Africa, and Latin America, but also in the Middle East, Turkey, and Kurdistan. All social and political activities must continue uninterruptedly. The Turkish state must constantly be confronted by the resistance, struggle, and will of the people. By this, Rêber Apo’s hand will be strengthened, and maybe a process will develop. Everything depends on expanding the struggle.

Looking at the current situation, one can see that Turkish officials are constantly on the run, presumably not for the good of society. For example, the current foreign minister, Hakan Fidan, is in Baghdad, and the head of the intelligence service, Ibrahim Kalin, is in Damascus. What is their intention, their goal, in their current efforts? What concept do you see that the Turkish state is currently trying to implement?

Well, as you said, the first thing one has to line out is that they are not interested in the good of society. Rather, they are pursuing an opportunistic policy. A process has developed in the Middle East. It started with the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, continued with Hezbollah in Lebanon, and then brought upon the fall of the Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria. And it can be assumed that these developments will also continue in Iraq and Iran. The Turkish state is calculating how to exploit Iraq’s fear of this and is therefore pressuring it. This is why Hakan Fidan is going to Iraq. In a press statement, he said: “I ask the Iraqi authorities to declare the PKK as a terrorist organization.” Everything they do is for the liquidation of the PKK. It is necessary to raise the struggle against this. Hakan Fidan again says that the PKK poses a threat to Iraq’s security. They have occupied hundreds of kilometers of Iraqi and southern Kurdistan territory, deployed thousands of forces there, established hundreds of bases, and bombards Iraq 24/7, but they tell Iraqi officials that the PKK threatens Iraq’s security. This is hypocrisy and immorality. I think it can be assumed that the Iraqi state is also aware of this. Iraq cannot achieve anything by making concessions to Turkey. Everyone saw how the Turkish state exploited the agreement between Ankara and Baghdad. The Iraqi state will draw a conclusion from this. The Turkish state is currently searching to put pressure on the Iraqi state in case what happened in Syria happens in Iraq. The Iraqi state must be aware of this. Iraq must stop making concessions to the Turkish state. It must be a strong-willed sovereign state. It must question why the Turkish state has placed forces in Bashiqa and what it is doing there. The Turkish state uses the PKK as a pretext, but the PKK is not there. The Iraqi state must take a stand and recognize the danger posed by the thousands of Turkish soldiers on its soil.

While Hakan Fidan is conducting such opportunistic politics and is trying to figure out how to put more pressure on the PKK in this process and how to get concessions from Iraq, Ibrahim Kalin wants to do the same thing in Damascus through Julani. There may be a possibility that Rojava and Damascus can hold talks and solve their problems politically. The Turkish state is disturbed by even this possibility and wants to put pressure on Damascus by fully expressing its discomfort openly. It is trying to convince Damascus to do anything but approach Rojava and the Kurds. They aim to create provocations and, as a result, chaos in Rojava. Now, Damascus wants to create the perception that there is PKK in Rojava, that there are ‘terrorists’. But the whole world knows and sees the reality. According to which international law is the so-called SNA attacking and threatening Rojava? The Turkish state not only supports them, it is waging a war in Rojava through them. On the other hand, the Turkish officials claim that it was them who supported HTS already in Idlib for years, that it was them who provided HTS with financial resources, and so from now on it should be them who should have economic and political weight in Syria. However, the international powers will never allow the Turkish state to establish a weight in Syria. Arab states and Arab society know very well how the Ottoman Empire disintegrated in history. They will never want the Turkish state to have influence in Syria. Economically and politically, the Arab states will prevent it. It is difficult for the Turkish state’s calculations on Syria to be realized. In my opinion, Ibrahim Kalin’s efforts will remain fruitless.

The press and media also play a crucial role in the development of processes. The rhetoric chosen there can both help to open the way to a solution, but can also create almost insurmountable obstacles. What contribution does the press currently make to the situation?

Ninety percent of the Turkish press is in the hands of the government. Most of the press, such as radio, TV, newspapers, etc., is in the hands of the AKP. The rest are those who call themselves the opposition press, and then there is the free press. So, summarized, one can say that there are three forms of press in Turkey: the AKP-owned press, the so-called opposition press, and the free press. The press of the AKP is using poisonous rhetoric. They are not interested in explaining anything to society or developing positive, democratic discussions, but only in legitimizing the AKP. There is constant defamation and denial. They are using the full power of the government. This serves nothing. Maybe there is no place in the world where the press is completely free, but there are principles that are being followed by news agencies like Reuters, BBC, etc. They may have relations with the state and may follow interests, but they are, to a certain extent, free. But in Turkey, whichever channel one turns on, whichever newspaper one looks at, there are only articles about what the AKP said, what it wants to do. They use a poisonous rhetoric against the democratic forces and the Kurdish people. This does not serve the society in Turkey; on the contrary, it deepens the contradictions. They should give up this language, they can criticize, they can express their discomfort, but even enmity has a morality and a style. They have no measure, follow no principles, lie, manipulate, and falsify; they do everything.

Then there are those who call themselves the opposition press. Most of them belong to CHP and also occasionally give space to the democratic forces. There is pressure on them stemming from the AKP, and they are not able to display a fully democratic and free attitude. So they are kind of stuck in between. They could play a better role, and some of the people working in some channels really want to play a more democratic role, but they need to be braver, they need to resist more, they need to be committed to the truth, and they need to think more strategically. They should not assume that everything will remain as it is. Many things will change. Turkey will one day be democratic; the Kurdish people will be liberated. They should take strength and courage from this thought and should believe in themselves. There is a positive role that they can play, but they should play it better. The pressures against them are evident: detentions, arrests, investigations, and lawsuits. Sometimes they make a ranking of the press in the world, and Turkey is at the bottom in terms of freedom. This shows how far Turkey is from freedom and democracy. However, this must not intimidate the opposition press and prevent it from playing a positive role.

And then, as already mentioned, there is the third form of press, the free press. There are many who gave their lives for the free press, like Ape Musa and Gurbetelli Ersoz. On this occasion, I respectfully commemorate all the martyrs of the press in Rojava and southern Kurdistan. The workers of the free press have paid a high price; they have been subjected to great pressure. Their buildings were bombed, they were arrested, kidnapped, and murdered. But the free press workers always insist on revealing the truth and show a great will. The free press plays a crucial role, even if they have limited means and face a lot of pressure. They have the opportunity to achieve even more through their work, but looking at what they already achieve compared to the rest of the press in Turkey, one can see that they are the ones who do the most justice to their role. The state, of course, wants to prevent them, detaining, arresting, and pressuring them every day. But the free press workers are resisting this, and they should continue to do so. I salute them on this occasion. They should always insist on their line and continue their struggle.

The AKP government takes advantage of the weakness of the opposition in Turkey to rule over the country as they wish. Why can’t the CHP in particular mount an effective opposition policy?

If you look at the history since the founding of Turkey, at who was formally in the opposition and what they did, then you will see that there has never been a real internal opposition in principle. Looking at the Europa and the world, one sees that everywhere the opposition in the system is trying to do something. They struggle against the rulers. But there is no such culture in Turkey. There is no opposition that can stand up to the government. The CHP is a party that has been around since the foundation of the Republic. It has undoubtedly undergone changes. And today it is up to the CHP to strengthen the opposition against the AKP government. The democratic, socialist, and revolutionary forces are continuing to conduct a self-sacrificing struggle. In other words, forces like the DEM Party play a role according to their possibilities and pay a high price for it. But what is the CHP doing? It only deals with the agenda created by the AKP and does not create its own. It is not building a stance against the AKP. What is the CHP’s project regarding the solution of the Kurdish question? This is something that the political forces and society need to know, but no one knows what the CHP’s project is. Is the democratization of Turkey possible without a solution to the Kurdish question? The main issue in Turkey is the Kurdish question. If they close their eyes to this, they cannot be an opposition party. That’s why we need to know what the CHP’s project, perspective, and strategy are regarding the solution of the Kurdish question. CHP should be brave at this point. It should put forward its own proposal. Either they are scared and afraid or their mentality prevents them from taking a clear stance. They want to achieve anything like this. Again, what is the CHP’s strategy and project for the democratization of Turkey? There is nothing on this issue either. It is not known what its solution to society’s economic, educational, political, and health problems is. The CHP is generally a party without a project, strategy, or road map.

This creates great opportunities for the AKP, and as you have pointed out, this enables the AKP to rule over the country as they wish. Of course, from time to time the CHP takes a stance against what is happening, but it is not stable; it does not have its own project, a long-term strategy for the change in Turkey, and the solution of the Kurdish question. The CHP should face the reality of the Kurdish question, put forward a project on how Turkey will be democratized when it is solved, and lead the society. They should mobilize society and should not remain silent. They should not just complain, they should put forward s democratic struggle. Not much is asked of the CHP; this is how governmental opposition works all over the world. But the CHP is not doing this. All democratic forces must fight against injustice together.

Recently, the intensity of attacks on North and East Syria and Rojava by the Turkish state and its mercenaries and gangs called SNA has once again increased massively. In the course of the attacks, they also committed crimes against humanity. What is the intention behind this? What are they trying to achieve?

Their aim is obvious. The Turkish state wants to prevent the Kurdish people from having a status. May it be in Rojava, in northern Kurdistan, or wherever. And aims to destroy the existing status in North and East Syria. Rojava is the honor of humanity; if the people there had not put up such a resistance against ISIS, not only the Middle East but also Europe would not be safe. Every day there would be terrorist attacks and massacres. The Turkish state is now attacking these people. In fact, it is attacking human values. That is why it is using the SNA. It is attacking the Kurdish people using the mercenaries and gangs it has gathered from all around the globe. It is seen in the press that these mercenaries and gangs cannot stand against YPJ/YPG, the SDF, and the people of Rojava. They are being killed and are trying to flee. They have no will and motivation to fight. For example, some of them are from Hama; they see that Assad is gone, Hama is liberated for them, and they question what they are still doing there and why they still have to fight. Since the mercenaries and their gangs fail to achieve results, the Turkish state itself steps in and attacks North and East Syria, trampling on all international laws, bombing, and massacring civilians. It wants to seize the Tishreen Dam and attacks the Qereqozakh Bridge incessantly, but it is devastated here.

YPJ/YPG, the SDF, and the people are putting up a massive, very honorable, and very crucial resistance. The Turkish state wants to take advantage as long as the situation in Syria has not yet found order. It cannot accept the Kurdish people’s gains. The people of Rojava are in constant resistance against all attacks. They represent human dignity. Humanity must rise up against these attacks. They should support Rojava in every sense. They should put pressure on the Turkish state.

We have been following the developments in the press. Recently a woman said: “We are bigger than death!”. This is a historical statement. Another woman said: “Our will is stronger than your technology and weapons!”. Such a society resists consciously and faithfully. The Turkish state cannot achieve results against these people. In four parts of Kurdistan and abroad, this honorable resistance must be supported; everyone must see it as their own resistance and embrace it. Legal and political struggle must be waged, and the massacres of the Turkish state must be exposed.

The people of North and East Syria have built a democratic model that can hardly be compared in history. Kurds, Arabs, Christians, Armenians, Assyrians, Êzidîs (Yazidis), and Turkmens all live together democratically and according to their own identities in dignity. They have been living in this system for about 13 years. The Turkish state is disturbed by this. It is afraid that this positive, democratic system affects Turkey. Everyone should support the democratic system in North and East Syria.

As it seems, the Kurdistan National Congress (KNK) has recently increased its efforts to achieve national unity. What kind of work is needed to achieve national unity among Kurds?

Rêber Apo always emphasizes the importance of national unity. He has presented many perspectives, made great efforts, and developed projects for this on several occasions. In fact, many steps were taken, but unfortunately those steps were always interrupted. Sometimes it was due to international interventions, sometimes from within the Kurds themselves. But the Kurdish people’s dream of national unity always remained alive. It is the Kurdish people who have suffered the most in the region, who have been torn apart. The Kurds know that no one can be relieved unless national unity is achieved. That is why they want national unity to be achieved as soon as possible. This is the demand of the Kurdish people. Kurdish movements, people who have influence on society, and prominent people all must see the dream of the Kurdish people, respect it, and play a role in its fulfillment. Today this has become obligatory.

Both Rêber Apo and our movement have stated many times before that the most crucial in this process is the realization of a national conference. A coordination, a council, must be formed among Kurdish organizations. This should be a decisive organ for fundamental, historical, and important issues and should not only consist of a single party or fragment. This is possible. The PKK has always been fighting for this and has always said that it is ready for national unity. But what is important are those who will develop these efforts. The KNK is working; they are holding congresses in four parts of Kurdistan and abroad. This is important and positive. Organizations like the KNK should mobilize society for a national congress or national unity. Society should hold marches and rallies, take a stance, and put pressure on the organizations by saying that we want national unity to be achieved in all parts of Kurdistan and in exile. All the organizations from the four parts of Kurdistan in Europe should come together and hold a march for national unity on one day. The same should be done in southern Kurdistan. Tribes, religious people, parties, and groups should all take a stand and march together. Other parts of Kurdistan should do the same. Because as long as there is fragmentation among the Kurds, the enemy abuses this; it has been doing so since history. Especially the Turkish state uses this very much. The enemies of Kurds should not be given the opportunity. That is why it is very important to have a national congress and national unity. The KNK can take a lead in this.

At the end of our conversation, is there anything else you would like to add, any message you want to give?

The physical freedom of Rêber Apo, which is always on the top of our agenda, must be ensured as soon as possible. Right now, we are entering February, and when we talk about February, the Kurdish people and their friends know that it means that February 15th is approaching. That is the day of the international conspiracy against Rêber Apo. It is a dark day for the Kurdish people. In order for that day to turn from darkness into light for the Kurdish people, for the liberation of the Kurdish people, and for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo, dozens of comrades set their bodies on fire and sacrificed themselves in the prisons, in the four parts of Kurdistan, abroad, and in the mountains of Kurdistan. They left an important legacy.

On this occasion, I would like to gratefully commemorate all the martyrs of the revolution by commemorating all those who gave their lives in the course of February 15th, and I respectfully bow to their memories. On February 15th, the struggle must be risen everywhere, and it shall never become complacent. Rêber Apo still is imprisoned in Imrali, and the war against us is in full view. Let’s make February 15th the day Rêber Apo is physically liberated. It is required to increase the struggle and insist on Rêber Apo’s physical freedom.

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