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On December 28, a delegation of the DEM party went to Imrali and held a meeting with peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan. In what context did the meeting take place, and how should it be assessed?

First of all, I would like to congratulate Rêber Apo¹ on the New Year and send my greetings and respect to him. We are very well aware that in 2024 there was a total isolation and great pressure on Rêber Apo on Imrali. But we also know that Rêber Apo put up a great resistance against it. At the same time as Rêber Apo is being pressured and tortured on Imrali, the Turkish state is carrying out a concept of liquidation and annihilation against our movement. They attack both the Kurdish people and our movement by mobilizing all the means at their disposal. Erdogan wants to liquidate our movement, eliminate Rêber Apo, and take his place in history as the conductor of countless massacres. Looking at the year 2024, one can easily see that they mobilized all their means and forces. They were hoping that they would successfully conclude their concept within this year. But despite the enemy’s brutal attacks against our people and against the Kurdish freedom guerrilla, including the use of chemical weapons, they failed to achieve results.

The guerrilla resisted in all areas, following the lead of comrades Asya and Rojger, and did not take a single step back. This created both a hope and a belief in the Kurdish people. The Turkish state is not only a NATO member state but also has its second biggest army; this should not be underestimated. There is no other force that has the power to resist the Turkish state for such a long period as the PKK and the Kurdish freedom guerrilla do. If it were not for the Turkish state, we would have already achieved a much bigger success. Also the other way round, without the PKK’s stance, struggle, and paradigm, the Turkish state would have succeeded in concluding its genocidal plans long ago. That is why a very heavy war has been waged for years. And again in 2024, the enemy was not able to achieve any results, as the pressure and torture against Rêber Apo on Imrali did not lead to any results either.

Our people have constantly been on their feet. Especially within the scope of the global campaign under the name of ‘Freedom for Abdullah Ocalan, a Political Solution to the Kurdish Question’, women, youth, academics, intellectuals, politicians, and socialists from many countries, pioneered by the international friends of the Kurdish people, took a serious stance and struggled. They created a serious agenda. When Rêber Apo’s paradigm gradually started to be understood around the world, its impact increased significantly, and the participation from all around the world in the struggle within the framework of the global freedom campaign increased significantly. In 2024, this struggle was very important. It has left a big mark on the past year and is still continuing. One of the results of the struggle in 2024 was that it created hesitation and fear within the enemy. Their belief that they would succeed was broken, and they realized that they could no longer achieve results. Our people have constantly been on their feet in Rojava, in northern and southern Kurdistan, as well as in Europe. Wherever there are Kurds, they have stood up against the attacks. Despite all the operations, genocidal attacks, and oppression, our people did not step back and continued their struggle.

Currently there are thousands of Kurdish politicians, patriots, and PKK cadres in prisons in Turkey and Kurdistan. No matter how many they arrest and imprison, new ones are coming, and the struggle continues with new synergy, willpower, and belief. The Kurdish people have decades of experience and have paid a heavy price, but they still continue their struggle with conviction. This has prevented the Turkish state from achieving its goal and created an insurmountable obstacle in front of the genocidal concept. Because of this, the Turkish state had to take a step back and reconsider many things. There have also been very important developments in the Middle East. The Turkish state realized that a change was taking place in the Middle East and that nothing would be the same anymore. Especially after the Israeli war against Palestine, Hamas, and Hezbollah, and finally the defeat of the regime in Syria, the Turkish state started to think about how this would affect itself. The Kurdish question is very dynamic, has a strong influence on many things, and always carries a strong meaning. This was going to weigh more heavily on the Turkish state than ever before. The developments in the Middle East surrounding Turkey have put pressure on the country, which is constantly increasing. All of these need to be taken into consideration when looking at the meeting that has taken place. The delegation of the DEM party to Imrali consisted of Sirri Sureyya Onder, Turkey’s parliament deputy speaker, and Pervin Buldan, member of the Grand National Assembly. They went to Rêber Apo at just such a time. That is important and is very meaningful in itself.

Today, not only Turkey, the Kurdish people, and our movement, but everyone is discussing this visit. Everyone wants to understand it, and everyone tries to interpret it in their own way. The meeting of the DEM party’s delegation with Rêber Apo has filled the entire agenda of Turkey. Also in the international arena, politicians and intellectuals are discussing this. How can what is going on, be labeled? What is going on? Where is all of this heading to? Those are questions that need to be evaluated and dwelled on later. One has to point out that since 1993, Rêber Apo has been aiming for the democratization of Turkey and a political, democratic, and dialogue-based solution to the Kurdish question. For this, he sacrificed a lot, researched a lot, and developed many projects. As is known, he therefore declared a ceasefire six or seven times. He wanted the solution process to develop during the Turgut Ozal period and afterwards as well. Unfortunately, all these efforts and searches of Rêber Apo were ignored by the occupationist mentality in the Turkish state that even denied the existence of the Kurdish people. Today, the war has worsened, and the reason for this is the Turkish state. The pro-war, chauvinist, and fascist forces prevail in the Turkish state. The state was founded based on them, based on the denial and annihilation of the Kurdish people. They prevented Rêber Apo’s efforts from reaching their goal. And now again, some discussions are going on, but no one is able to give this situation a name, whether it is a new form of a process or not. It is not even clear in what format the talks with Rêber Apo are being held. What is important here is that for years Rêber Apo has seen himself responsible for the future of the Kurdish people and the society in Turkey. He insisted on a democratic solution to the question and always pointed out that he was looking for an interlocutor.

Today, talks are being held with Rêber Apo, and the messages given by him in these talks are crucial and historical. They are meaningful for the future of Turkey and the Kurdish people. He pointed out that everyone has a role to play in this. Rêber Apo has been saying for years that he is ready to take responsibility for the democratization of Turkey and the solution of the Kurdish question. He already stated what needs to be done for this. The important thing is for everyone to handle his messages correctly and fulfill their responsibilities. The leadership of our movement, the co-presidency of the KCK Executive Council, had given a statement quite recently in this regard. The position of our movement and our people is clear, without a doubt; for us, the interlocutor is always Rêber Apo. Of course, the struggle for Rêber Apo to fulfill his historical role in a more comfortable and better way will always be increased. This is important.

Another issue is not to be complacent. Unrealistic and exaggerated hopes are not right either. We must also believe in our power. If we hadn’t done this so far, the Turkish state would not have allowed a delegation to go to Imrali. The fact that they allowed the delegation showed that the Turkish state has problems; they could not reach their goals because our struggle has increased even more, and so the Turkish state has become helpless. The conclusion to draw from this is that the bigger the struggle everywhere and at any time, without becoming complacent and by utilizing the existing opportunities in the most effective way, the results will be even more significant, and Rêber Apo will be able to play his role in a better way.

After the meeting with peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan, there have been many discussions on both the opposition and the government side. How do you read these discussions and statements regarding the solving of the Kurdish question? And how do you assess the responsibility of Turkish intellectuals and artists in all of this?

The Turkish state, which is based on the denial and annihilation of the Kurdish people, needs to draw a conclusion from the last 50 years of war. Insisting on the same mentality means the continuation of the same process. No solution can come out of this. If a positive and correct process is to be initiated, there are some necessary steps to be taken. First of all, the mentality that denies the Kurdish people must be abandoned. Denying the existence and rights of the Kurdish people and at the same time talking about some form of solution is not possible. The cost of that mentality has been very heavy, especially to the society and people of Turkey. Tens of thousands of people lost their lives in this 50-year war, and these people were not only guerrillas and Kurdish people. Tens of thousands of Turkish soldiers also died. Again, the Kurdish people suffered enormously during this period. Thousands of villages were burned and evacuated. Millions of people were forcibly displaced from their lands by the state, and the state did everything to make the people step back.

Today Turkey’s economy and politics are being discussed. The talk is about unemployment, hunger, and poverty, which are all caused by the war. A few days ago a government official announced that 3 trillion dollars had been spent on this war. If these 3 trillion dollars had been spent on raising the economic, educational, or health standards of Turkish society, the situation in Turkey would be very different today. Unfortunately, the people of Turkey seem like they do not know why they are in this situation. It is that fascist mentality that brought them there. If they insist on it, there will be no change. The Turkish state must abandon its mentality of denial and extermination. It is not only the Turkish society that has sensitivities, also the Kurdish people also have sensitivities. It is not possible to do something unilaterally, according to their own needs, by looking down on them, by rejecting them. They must also respect the Kurdish people, especially the stance and efforts of Rêber Apo. If this historical issue is to be resolved, these must be taken into consideration.

Kurdish and Turkish intellectuals, academics, and their institutions have to play a role in this. They should have something to say and take a stance in this process. They should not ignore the facts and reality. They must say the necessary things and take the necessary steps. They must influence the agenda, warn the society, and put pressure on the state. They must also play a role in building a democratic and just life. Academics and intellectuals should know the reality of the war, the depth and gravity of the problem. Accordingly, the dialectics of how to democratize Turkey and solve the Kurdish question should be best conveyed to the peoples of Turkey and the Kurdish people. They must also have the necessary talks with the Turkish state. This period makes it imperative for intellectuals, academics, and institutions to play their role.

As I pointed out, currently it is not possible to label the ongoing situation. We do not know where the developments will go to. The only thing that is clear to us is that whatever Rêber Apo says, whatever stance he takes, he has thought it through comprehensively and evaluated it from all angles. Accordingly, he is trying to develop something. This is the situation from Rêber Apo’s point of view. We do not know about the Turkish state’s approach, how responsibly it will act. It is still planning how to liquidate the movement, how to strike a blow, and how to achieve results. If they continue with such a mindset, I say it once again; they will never be able to break the will of the PKK and the Kurdish people; they will never get results. But if they evaluate the events of the past year well, if they see the developments in the Middle East and their effects on Turkey, and take according steps, they can get results. If they do not do this, the Kurdish people will not only continue but also much more increase their resistance. As the co-presidency of the KCK Executive Council stated in its statement, Rêber Apo is our will, everything he says is valid for us. As I said, we must never become complacent; our primary goal is the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. Based on this we will strengthen our struggle.

In 2024, there were many developments in the Middle East that left their mark on the period. Most recently, the Baath regime was overthrown in Syria. How will these developments affect the year 2025?

At the end of 2023, a signal was given with the beginning of the Palestinian-Israeli war. This is where the shifting of stones in the Middle East began. Hamas suffered heavy blows in this war, and then the same thing happened to Hezbollah and Lebanon. Most recently, the regime in Syria has been overthrown. This seems to be a continued strategy and one goal. And one has to particularly take a look at the set goal. The status determined a hundred years ago in the Middle East does not work any longer. The politics of the existing nation states and hegemonic powers are not the same. Especially America, Britain, and Israel are making plans on how they can rebuild the capitalist modernity system in the Middle East according to their own interests. There were obstacles in front of them, and as I said, they destroyed those obstacles through the Palestinian-Israeli war and finally through turning Syria upside down. It is clear that this will continue, and this is the fear of the Turkish state. The stance of the Turkish state, which insists on itself, which is closed to change, and wants to play a role as the new Ottoman Empire, and the developments in the Middle East do not match.

There are certain goals that the Turkish state has set itself. One of these is to shape Iraq to suit its own interests. The Iraq needs to see some realities and come to its senses. We don’t know how the Turkish state deceived them, how it pulled them into its axis, and how they ended up in such a bad situation today. Just recently it was in the press that they raided some Kurdish institutions, women’s institutions; they want to close them down. They said it was a decision of the Iraqi state. They are collaborating with the KDP. But these are the demands of the Turkish state. The Turkish state is playing with Iraq. Just as it is playing on Sunnis with its SNA gangs in Syria, it wants to play on Sunnis and Turkmens in Iraq. It aims to structure and organize Iraq on the basis of its interests. This policy of the Turkish state is similar to the policies of America, Britain, and Israel towards Iraq. The Iraqi state still does not see this. Not so long ago, the government in Baghdad made some agreements with the Turkish state. The Turkish state has occupied their land. When Israel attacked Iran, Iraq immediately complained against Israel to the UN. They have the right to complain, but on the other hand, the Turkish state has not only violated their territory; it has annexed it, it has placed thousands of forces on their territory, and the war is being waged here, yet they do not raise a voice against the Turkish state. And the agreements they made are still continuing. Iraq needs to see this and abandon these agreements as soon as possible.

The Iraqi state should be aware that after Syria, it will be them who come to the agenda. Maybe with the same method used in Syria, or maybe through a heavy embargo, or maybe through America, Britain, and Israel pushing some liberal people who are loyal to them and making the existing government ineffective. This could also be directed against Iran. Central Asia and the Middle East are a problem for these hegemonic powers. Because they want to secure their energy and trade lines from India to Israel via Cyprus to Europe, and they want to cut Iran off from China and Russia. Iran’s stance is a problem for them. It is hard to tell what exactly they plan to do, but we know that the only solution to this can be democratization. If both Iraq and Iran develop a radical change in the democratic sense and solve the Kurdish question, as well as the existing social and cultural problems with the perspective given by the model of democratic nation, they can eliminate these pressures against them. There is no other way. This was shown most prominently now in Syria.

If Bashar al-Assad, the Baath regime, had read and understood the developments over the last thirteen years correctly, had distanced himself from the ruling mentality, and had thought more strategically, he would have realized the importance of solving the Kurdish question and the need for change. Based on this, he could have implemented a crucial change in time, but instead, he insisted on himself, and the outcome of this now is in front of everyone’s eyes.

One hundred years ago, the Middle East was designed under the leadership of England and France, and today America, Israel, and England want to renew this. If a democratic paradigm, where women, youth, and all identities, beliefs, and cultures can live together freely, is not taken as a basis, the Middle East will once again be designed by the international capitalist powers. There is already a war going on right now, a Third World War.

Already many years ago, Rêber Apo had pointed out that a Third World War might break out in the Middle East and could continue until 2030. What matters is whether the democratic will of the society will come to the fore. The realities of the Middle East and Europe are not the same. Because the Middle East is first and foremost a society, it has a more traditional, more rooted culture. Maybe not with a democratic paradigm, but it will resist somehow. The society itself is always open for a democratic paradigm to be organized. Until then, war and struggle continue in the Middle East. In 2025, these developments will continue. There are dangers, but opportunities are also coming up for the peoples and democratic forces. Undoubtedly, we need to make good use of these opportunities.

How do you assess the situation in Rojava and North and East Syria after the fall of the Assad regime? Did the SNA gang fall into a vacuum after the overthrow of Assad?

Looking at the Middle East, one quickly notices that Syria is different from the other Arab states. It may not have been more democratic, but it was more secular, laicistic. It is a country where many beliefs and cultures could somehow live together. Despite the oppression and persecution of the state and the government, Syria is different from other Arab countries. Kurds, Arabs, Christians, Armenians, Muslims, and so on can live together democratically. This is a richness. But if a democratic system is not created, then this is not an opportunity but a major problem, because then everyone will be at each other’s throats, and war will break out. Under the Baath regime, the peoples were not free, they were all oppressed. And now, either they will turn against each other, or a democratic Syria will be built. Recently, a Turkish academic was talking on TV, and he stated that in 1860 in Syria, particularly in Damascus, people of different nationalities and beliefs were fighting each other, just like today. At that time, the Ottoman Empire ruled Syria. Even the Ottomans couldn’t solve the problem; they got desperate and called France, Germany, and Britain and asked them to come and help solve this problem.

The Baath regime is gone, and that’s good, but the mentality of the HTS and others that replaced it is closed to accepting women’s freedom and tolerating different beliefs, religions, cultures, and identities. It is against them. This will exacerbate the problems. If HTS came to Damascus and came to power today, it has received support from somewhere, and it is clear what this ‘somewhere’ is. It is first and foremost America, Britain, and Israel. They are now facing a test. If they are able to realize a change, if they are seen as reasonable by the international powers, they can be accepted. It is hard to assess what that reasonable point is, but, for example, there is the question of Rojava, the question of the women, there are questions of faith, there is the oppression of Alevis and Durzis, and so on. Therefore, it is premature to say whether positive change will happen in Syria at their hands. Because what is seen now is that all the names assigned to important positions by the HTS leader are of ISIS and Al-Qaeda origin. It is not easy to change their mentality towards women, society, different beliefs, and religions. With them, it is not easy to create stability, democratize, or solve the problems in Syria.

When they are able to seriously change, they will be accepted by the hegemonic forces. But as a matter of fact, this current situation also suits the hegemonic powers; they don’t have to risk anything themselves, and they don’t shed blood. It is the peoples of this region who are fighting each other, who are exhausting each other. The weaker they become, the more they turn to America and Europe. The hegemonic powers know this, and they exploit it. I predict that the serious problems will continue in Syria and might even deepen.

The Turkish state is currently staging itself as the most successful state. Maybe they have tied some gangs to themselves; they can wage a war against Rojava and the Kurdish people, but the Turkish state has no role in the future of Syria. Because the gangs and mercenaries affiliated with the Turkish state are neither homogeneous nor ideological, they have come together for salaries and money. Each of them came from a different region of Syria. They came from Hama, Homs, Aleppo, Damascus, and so on. Now they think that these cities have been liberated, so what are they doing in Manbij, Kobane, Gire Spi, and Serekaniye? That is why they want to leave, want to run away.

As was shown in the press, the SDF and the autonomous self-administration are encouraging them to leave and making according calls. And they are doing a good job. But the Turkish state is preventing the gangs and mercenaries from leaving. These gangs and mercenaries have become a nuisance for the Turkish state; they don’t want to fight, as they can’t get results anyway, so the Turkish state has fallen into a vacuum. They had made all their calculations based on the SNA. As far as we know, HTS in Damascus does not plan to give Turkey any role. The Turkish state will not have a very big role in future Syria. Maybe economically, commercially, but regarding the political future of Syria, the Turkish state is in a vacuum. Those who paved the way for Bashar al-Assad’s departure and regime change will not allow the Turkish state to have an influence on HTS. If they want to understand the situation in Syria, if they want to see where the process will go, if they want to know how the problem will be solved, they should see the picture in Rojava and North and East Syria. For more than thirteen years, Kurds, Arabs, Christians, Armenians, Assyrians, and Turkmens have lived together in a free and democratic way. They have built a system where everyone lives with their own identity and with dignity. In order for this democratic system to be built throughout all of Syria, Syria must turn its attention to Rojava.

When the Middle East was designed during the First World War, the will of the Kurdish people was ignored. Now over one hundred years later, the Middle East is being redesigned, and this time the Kurdish people have a decisive power. What role and mission do Kurdish parties, institutions, and organizations have to play in order for the Kurdish people to have a status in this process? What attitude should Kurdish artists, intellectuals, and patriots adopt?

The Kurdish people are very well aware of what is happening, and the organizations of the Kurdish people must also have a clear vision of what is going on. A historical process is taking place. We already talked about the changes in the Middle East. However, the Kurdish people are the most dynamic force, the most open to developments, the most democratic, and the most willful power. Unless the Kurdish question is solved, democratization of the Middle East is not possible. One hundred years ago, the occupying powers tricked the Kurdish people. They said it would be against the interests of the Kurdish people to have a status, and the Kurdish people were not able to unite and show a common will at that time. We suffered from this for more than one hundred years. But today the situation is different. Rêber Apo has a 50-year paradigm; there are many organizations in the four parts of Kurdistan that are working and struggling. There is a history and experience. A united national spirit and will must emerge as soon as possible. This is the dream and hope of the Kurdish people. Any party in Kurdistan, anyone questions why Kurds are not united. They criticize, and rightly so. If the Kurds are not united, no part, no organization has any security. They form one will together.

Important developments are taking place in the Middle East, and there are some things that need to be said on behalf of the Kurdish people. The people need to put forward this will, but as long as they remain fragmented, the occupying forces take advantage of this. This must be prevented. Rêber Apo always offered a perspective on this issue; he approached it in a very humble way. We don’t want anything for the PKK; we just want Kurds to be united. The practices so far have been important; efforts have been made, but unfortunately unity did not happen. But today, as the most suitable conditions are arising, Kurds must unite as soon as possible. The PKK is always ready for this. Every organization and every Kurd should be ready for this as well. One or two principles are enough for this; firstly, patriotism. Every patriot has a role to play. And secondly, no movement or individual should disregard the rights of the Kurdish people by siding with the Kurdish enemies and occupationist forces. They may have economic or other relations, but they should not oppose the future, destiny, gains, and freedom of the Kurdish people.

To those who are wondering how the Turkish state or other states will react to this, how long is this supposed to go on? The crucial point is that if we join forces, no state can stop us. Then they must respect the will of the Kurdish people and take it seriously. Maybe a conference or congress will take time; it is not something that can be done in one day, but Kurdish forces can establish a mechanism among themselves. When something needs to be said about what is happening in the Middle East, this mechanism should be used to give a joint statement and take a joint stance. This would serve the democratic resolution of the Kurdish question and the democratization of the Middle East. The Kurdish question is such a fundamental problem. That is why unity is needed as soon as possible. The PKK is always ready for this. Our comrades have expressed this many times. Such a work is very important and historic.

At the end of our conversation, is there anything else you would like to tell the people for the new year 2025?

The physical liberation of Rêber Apo and the struggle for this are crucial. Since the beginning of the global freedom campaign, a great effort has been made under the leadership of women, the youth, and the international friends of the Kurdish people. It is necessary to develop this more organized, stronger, and with greater conviction. Every opportunity must be utilized well. Rêber Apo’s physical freedom must be achieved in 2025. This is our primary goal and hope for 2025. The second, as I have mentioned, is the unity of the Kurdish people. Everyone should see themselves responsible for this, and so do we. After one hundred years, there are positive developments for the Kurdish people, and we must utilize this situation and take serious steps. For this, no one should ever become complacent. The more we struggle, the more we resist, the more organized we are, the more results we will achieve. I am convinced that this is how we will struggle and get results in 2025.

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