october 06, 2024
The October 9th Conspiracy, which will soon have its 26th anniversary, is not a closed historical event. The attack against the Kurdish people’s leader, Abdullah Ocalan, and the Kurdish people that it represents continues to this day. What can you tell us about the cause of the conspiracy and how it continues?
As we are about to enter the 27th year of the conspiracy, first of all, I strongly condemn and curse the forces responsible for it. At the same time, I commemorate all the martyrs who gave their lives for freedom with respect. In the since 26-year ongoing struggle against the conspiracy, a high price was paid by many of our valuable comrades, our people, and our international friends. Martyrdoms have taken place, and tens of thousands of people have been imprisoned. There has been great suffering. But, as a result, the conspiracy failed to achieve its goal. This is very important.
We have evaluated the purpose of the conspiracy on many occasions and Rêber Apo1 himself made the most extensive evaluation in his prison writings. What always needs to be pointed out is that the Third World War started with the conspiracy. The international powers wanted to intervene in the Middle East on a large scale under the leadership of America. They saw Rêber Apo and the PKK as a major obstacle to this intervention. Why? Because Rêber Apo had a great impact on the Kurdish people. He caused great changes and transformations in the Kurdish people, and he had started a freedom struggle centered in Kurdistan. The hegemonic powers saw a freedom movement like the PKK as a threat to them and wanted to neutralize it. That is why they, under the leadership of America, Britain, and Israel, developed a conspiracy against Rêber Apo. Many powers, like Greece and all European Union countries, especially Germany, also took part in this conspiracy. When Rêber Apo went to Europe, they did not grant political asylum. Rêber Apo wanted to be tried, but they didn’t put him on trial. Because if they had tried him, the Kurdish question would have been on the agenda of Europe and international public opinion. By preventing his right to political asylum and his trial, they almost led to his extermination. They put pressure on Italy, and Rêber Apo was forced to leave the country. One should not overlook that also regional powers took part in the conspiracy. For example, Egypt took part in the conspiracy, Iran perhaps played a side role, and Russia took part in it as well. All of them realized that they could not intervene in the Middle East unless Rêber Apo and the PKK were neutralized.
After the conspiracy, Al-Qaeda attacked America in 2001, and using this as a justification, America intervened in Afghanistan. In March 2003, America intervened in Iraq. Saddam was liquidated, and civil war broke out in Iraq. Step by step, a federation was created in southern Kurdistan. They wanted to align the whole of southern Kurdistan with the KDP in order to use it as a collaborationist and treasonous force. In this way, they aimed to take everything under their control. In fact, the KDP and the Barzani family clan took a very active part in the conspiracy. The PKK is a very strong revolutionary, democratic, and socialist movement that leads the peoples in the Middle East. Opportunities would arise from chaos in the Middle East, and they calculated that the PKK would take advantage of this, that it would grow even more, that it would make the Kurdish freedom movement permanent, and that the freedom of Kurdistan would be inevitable under the leadership of the PKK. There would be a revolution in Kurdistan and a democratic revolution in the Middle East, and when this happened, the calculations, plans, and concepts of the conspirators would come to naught. Because the people do not want an intervention from outside, they will revolt against it; they will not accept hegemonic, occupying forces. In order to prevent this, they carried out the conspiracy.
Also important to underline is that in 1998, Rêber Apo had declared a ceasefire before leaving Syria. He wanted to solve the Kurdish question in a political and democratic way. On this basis, he called on the Turkish state and asked for a democratic negotiation. The hegemonic powers saw this as a threat to their interests. If the Kurdish question were to be resolved in this way, they would not be able to abuse Turkey as they would like. Therefore, with the conspiracy, they intervened in the democratic and political solution process of Rêber Apo and blocked it. The conspiracy is a conspiracy against the Kurdish people, the peoples of the Middle East, and particularly women. Rêber Apo represents their freedom, so the Kurds, the peoples of the Middle East, and women are targeted through the attack on the person of Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo, with the stance he exhibited, has thwarted the attacks and traps against him one by one. Our people saw the truth quickly and rose up; millions of people rose up in all four parts of Kurdistan and abroad. Our people, our international friends, the democratic forces, and everyone who saw the conspiracy and the danger rose up. Particularly the Kurdish women played a leading role. There were many sacrifices; our comrades, our patriotic people, burned themselves; some turned their own bodies into weapons. The conspiracy was met with great reaction by our people, by the guerrilla, and particularly by women. This had a huge impact on the conspiratorial forces. That is why they did not dare to physically destroy Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo also took precautions and adopted a strategic policy, which made the conspiracy futile. Since the conspiratorial forces could not physically destroy him, they continued the conspiracy with the isolation method. This time with isolation, they wanted to neutralize Rêber Apo, cut his ties with the outside world, and prevent his voice from reaching the peoples. For 26 years, there has been isolation against him.
From time to time, the struggle against it reached intense peaks; from time to time, campaigns took place and massive actions took place. For example, the “Êdî Bese”2 campaign had a huge impact. Whenever the enemy was under great pressure, they sometimes eased the isolation. Sometimes they did this for their own interests.
For example, from time to time, the lawyers of Rêber Apo would go to hold talks with him, and HDP delegations would go to Imrali from 2014 until April 2015. The state carried out a tactic for its own interests. As I said, sometimes the isolation was alleviated, but basically Rêber Apo has been under isolation for 26 years. Most of the time they said that the ferry to the island was out of order; many times they used the excuse of bad weather, and in this way they continued the isolation. Now for more than five years, they have been using disciplinary punishment as an excuse. That is all part of the concept of the conspirators. Along with isolation, they are also conducting a great genocide policy against the Kurdish people. They want to break the will of the Kurdish people in this way, to surrender them. This is how they aim to bring the conspiracy to its goal. For this reason, a huge war has been waged for 26 years, centered in Imrali.
In northern Kurdistan, there is a military war, there are constant operations, and cultural and natural genocide persists without any break. They are attacking every day to liquidate the Rojava Revolution. To destroy those who waged a great war against ISIS and Al-Nusra. The Kobane war was part of this, as was the occupation of Afrin. When they could not use ISIS actively anymore, they started to use tens of thousands of gang remnants and mercenaries against the Kurdish people. They attacked Afrin, Serekaniye, Gire Spi, Shengal (Sinjar), and Makhmur. There is an invasion, and the occupation attacks in southern Kurdistan are now continuing for four, five years. This all happens within the frame of the Misak-i Milli3. The war has never stopped, and also the conspiracy has always continued. These attacks were the continuation of the conspiracy. The international powers involved in the conspiracy back then are also taking part in these attacks now, they carry the Turkish state.
The war continues in northern and southern Kurdistan, as it does in Rojava. The Turkish state is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in this war, but no one objects it; in fact, they support it. Right now the Israeli state is carrying out a genocidal policy against the Palestinian people, the Lebanese people – the Turkish state has been doing this for a hundred years. Especially in the last ten years, it has been waging this war much more violently. Israel takes the Turkish state as an example in these attacks. They share the same mentality, the same understanding, and carry out the same policy.
As you mentioned, Rêber Apo, the Kurdish people, the guerrilla, and the international friends of the Kurdish people did not surrender to the conspiracy and waged a continuous struggle against it. How do you evaluate the ongoing struggle against the conspiracy?
After 26 years, the Turkish state is still waging a war against Rêber Apo and the Kurdish people. It is so because the conspiracy that started on October 9, 1998 did not yield any results. In the first year of the conspiracy, they wanted to physically destroy Rêber Apo and liquidate the PKK. They aimed to bring the genocide concept to a conclusion in two years at most. They could not achieve their goal because there was a great resistance against the conspiracy. Our people were always and everywhere in resistance. That is why the conspiracy failed. They could not physically destroy Rêber Apo, they could not liquidate the PKK until today, they could not break the will of the free Kurds, they could not force them to surrender. Our people waged a great struggle, so the conspiracy could not achieve its goal.
When one evaluates these 26 years, one sees that the resistance developed by Rêber Apo in Imrali had a great impact on the Kurdish people and the peoples of the region. Rêber Apo developed the paradigm of a democratic nation under conditions of torture and isolation in Imrali. He wrote five books defending the rights of the Kurdish people, women, and oppressed peoples in every sense and defending human values. Rêber Apo revealed the ideological, philosophical, and theoretical aspects of the paradigm he developed for the freedom of the Kurdish people, for the freedom of peoples and women. The prison writings were read and evaluated by the Kurdish people, the movement, and our international friends, and this created a great consciousness. Like this, the paradigm of the democratic nation frustrated the international conspiracy. Because the aim of the conspiracy was to create an endless war between Kurds and Turks, between Kurdish people and Arab people, between Kurdish people and Persian people. In other words, they wanted the peoples in the whole region to be enemies of each other on the basis of racism, on the basis of religionism, and to be in perpetual war. The conspiracy had set such a trap for the peoples. The paradigm of democratic nation refuted this conspiracy. This paradigm was based on the coexistence of all peoples in a fraternal, free, and democratic system. The nation-state system maintains its power permanently with its divide-rule policy. Rêber Apo deciphered this with the paradigm of democratic nation. Our people also waged a struggle within the framework of this paradigm. They paved the way for a revolution in the region based on this. The paradigm created a great change in mentality; it created a great change and transformation in the peoples. The Rojava Revolution is the result of this. And the Rojava Revolution had had an undoubtedly huge impact on peoples all over the world. This is very important. It created great chaos in the nation-state system. It weakened the system and created a free, democratic, and equal life for the peoples.
The struggle of the Kurdish people has had a huge impact on the peoples of the Middle East today. It has prepared a great ground for the democratization of the Middle East. And the resistance continues on this axis. That is why the attacks also continue. Because the hegemonic powers evaluate this resistance as a danger. That is why they continue the isolation. Because the plans of the conspirators do not yield results, Rêber Apo has deciphered them all. Our people frustrated them all with their resistance. No matter what the conspiratorial forces did, the conspiracy could not achieve its goal. In every period, the conspiracy was frustrated. Today, the paradigm of democratic nation, the democratic confederal system, has become the alternative of a free life for the Kurdish people, for the people of the region, and for all peoples of the world.
For 26 years, the struggle waged by Rêber Apo, our people, and our international friends has unmasked the Turkish state and the forces of capitalist modernity, revealing their true faces. That is why they have gone mad; they have fallen into a great hatred. With this hatred, they are going after Rêber Apo and are imposing the absolute isolation. They are hostile to Rêber Apo, free Kurds, the freedom movement, and Kurdistan. That is why the conspiratorial forces support the Turkish state. But as I stressed out, the resistance continues as well. No matter what they do, they cannot get results. For 26 years, our people, our international friends, and particularly women have resisted. They have frustrated the conspiracy; they have prevented the conspiracy from achieving its goal. Rêber Apo’s influence on the peoples is greater today than ever before. Rêber Apo is now the leader of the peoples, his influence has spread all over the world. The freedom movement is standing with all its strength, fighting with all its might; our people are standing and struggling. The conspiratorial forces lost, the liberation forces, and the resistant peoples won. Even though they persistently continue the conspiracy, today the resistance still continues. The resistance of Rêber Apo continues. As a result, this conspiracy has failed. No matter how much they want to cover up this reality, this fact, they cannot succeed. The conspiracy has not yielded any results so far, and it will not in the future. Our people and all the peoples will not allow the conspiracy to get results.
The global campaign ‘Freedom for Abdullah Ocalan, a Political Solution to the Kurdish Question’ is approaching its first anniversary. What has been its impact, and what have been the achievements of the course of the past year?
The campaign that was launched on October 10, 2023, is of great significance. In this one-year period, a great struggle took place, and the carried-out resistance successfully achieved some important results. It is a campaign that is being led by our international friends. That is why it had such a strong impact all over the world. Rêber Apo’s prison writings were read all over the world. The truth, paradigm, and ideas of Rêber Apo to be understood and recognized are very crucial. The fact that they spread had great consequences in terms of embracing Rêber Apo and demanding his physical freedom. Many conferences were organized; academics, artists, and intellectuals discussed his paradigm and wrote articles. All of these also had a serious impact and are very important. Again, for example, there were concerts, artists supported the campaign, raised their voices for Rêber Apo’s physical freedom, and voiced their demands. 69 Nobel Prize-laureates wrote letters to the regarding authorities and also raised their voices for Rêber Apo’s freedom. Unions in England and Scotland, which have thousands of members, made a statement for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. More than 1500 lawyers wrote letters, made statements, and called on the authorities for Rêber Apo. The European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) had to make many statements; most recently, the institutions of the Council of Europe met, held discussions, and also had to react. The reason for all this is the resistance, the struggle. This universalized the campaign for Rêber Apo’s physical freedom. We can say that the campaign launched to demand Rêber Apo’s physical freedom has gone far beyond the borders of Kurdistan and that there is a mass embrace all over the world. In the four parts of Kurdistan, especially in northern Kurdistan and Rojava, as well as abroad, our people were constantly on their feet.
Our people also waged a very effective struggle. It has been like this for years, but especially in the last year, the struggle has grown even more. The struggle on a social, legal, ideological, political, and diplomatic level, and particularly the spreading of the paradigm, has brought upon some serious results. Today the occupying Turkish state reached a dead end. This campaign squeezed the conspiratorial forces; they had to make statement after statement, justification after justification. That shows the success and importance of the campaign. Now we must evaluate these results in order to find the correct ways to achieve even bigger success. There are opportunities and conditions in every sense for the campaign to succeed, and it is inevitable that we will get results in the coming year.
Last month, the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe adopted a resolution regarding the so-called ‘Right to Hope’. How do you evaluate the Committee of Ministers’ decision on the violation of the ‘Right to Hope’?
As I pointed out before, they had to take such a decision as a result of the struggle. The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) had taken a decision in 2014 and determined its approach back then. It basically said, “There is isolation and torture in Imrali; this is a violation of human rights; this is unacceptable; it is a crime.” Accordingly, it asked the Turkish state to end the isolation and torture. But that is it. Afterwards, they kept silent and did not take any further steps. From 2014 until 2024, they never again put it on the agenda. They did not question why their decision was not implemented even after ten years. They did not question why the isolation still continued. When this campaign started, when the struggle grew all over the world, when it became universal, when many people in many international areas reacted to the isolation, the Committee of Ministers (CM) of the Council of Europe (CoE) had to convene and take a decision. They told the Turkish state that it must end the isolation and fix the system within a year. We consider this to be great hypocrisy. Where have you been for the last ten years? For ten years there has been a system of absolute isolation and torture in Imrali. Knowing this, why did you remain silent?
Ten years have passed, and only today they are meeting and taking such a decision. Of course, it is important that they took such a decision as a result of the struggle, but they are interconnected with the Turkish state. For ten years, the Turkish state has been conducting a policy of genocide against the Kurdish people. There are great attacks in every area, and the international powers are also partners in these attacks; they support the Turkish state. “You can completely neutralize Ocalan, eliminate the freedom movement, liquidate it, and bring the genocide concept against the Kurdish people to a conclusion.” That is what they told them. They support them, turn a blind eye on them, and do not make a sound. Encouraged by this, the Turkish state has been carrying out a genocidal concept against the Kurdish people for over ten years. It wants to neutralize the Kurdish people all over the world. For example, there were two massacres against friends of mine in Paris. And they also maintained the system of solitary confinement against Rêber Apo. But still, they could not get results. Today, the Third World War has entered its most strategic stage. The position of the Turkish state harms the interests of Europe, America, and NATO. They saw that they could not neutralize Rêber Apo, the freedom movement, and the Kurdish people, that they could not weaken their will, and that they could not bring the concept of international powers to a conclusion. That is why they have made some changes in their approach. Not completely, but they still gave the Turkish state a last chance. In fact, through blackmailing and putting them under pressure, they are telling the Turkish state that it has to act in accordance with their interests. They are telling the Turkish leaders that they have to adjust their axis one hundred percent to Europe and America; otherwise, they say, their position will gradually change. They are giving such a message to the Turkish state. In fact, that is why they are giving the Turkish state one more year. Neither Europe nor the Western Bloc can support the Turkish state in such a position any longer. The Turkish state is now a big burden for them. They are also being disgraced. The struggle waged by our people and our international friends exposes and disgraces them too. Because they are all partners of the Turkish state. Everyone sees that their law and democracy are fake.
They say they are the center of democracy, democratic law, and human rights, but the Kurdish people, the peoples of the region, and the peoples of Europe see that all this is actually fake, that it is political propaganda, that it is for the dirty interests of the governments. Their real faces are being exposed. The Turkish state has been blackmailing Europe for ten years. They used ISIS as blackmail. Again, they lured the entire Syrian people to Turkey, and today they say that more than four million Syrians are in Turkey. They received money from the European Union through the refugees. They made agreements to leave the refugees in Turkey and not send them to Europe. They took Europe hostage, and at the same time they took money from them. That money did not help the refugees in the slightest. These policies are bankrupt. Europe is trying to get out of this hostage position.
The decision taken by the CM of the CoE is incomplete and too late. It is a point to criticize, but as they say, it is better to cut your losses. They were very wrong; they conducted a very dirty policy; they supported the genocide concept of the Turkish state; they were complicit. Now they want to change their policies; even if it is late, even if it is incomplete, it is still a positive step. Europe should no longer be a partner in this crime. An end must be set to this persecution against the Kurdish people. They are persecuting the Kurdish people in the person of Rêber Apo, and they are waging war. Therefore, the Turkish state must fulfill whatever international law requires. An end must be set to isolation and torture. Rêber Apo has the right to hope; he must be tried again. The conditions in Imrali must change immediately; this is important.
According to your opinion, in what ways and methods should the campaign continue from now on? In particular, what kind of political, ideological, social, moral, and legal struggle should be waged in Kurdistan and abroad in order for the second phase of the campaign to succeed?
This is an important question. One year has passed and it is very important for us to succeed in the coming year. Because as I said, the Third World War in the region has now reached a strategic stage. The war is spreading every day and there is a possibility that it will spread to Iran and Turkey as well. The war that Israel is currently waging in Lebanon and Gaza cannot be considered as war just effecting these places and only effecting these forces. In fact, this war is a regional war and its center is Kurdistan. This war has been going on in Kurdistan for decades. The second phase of the campaign will continue in this framework. The success of this campaign will determine the fate of the Kurdish people and the peoples of the Middle East. The Turkish state wants to complete its genocide plans at this stage of the war. That is why the Turkish state will insist on the war of genocide and deepen it. The war waged by Israel has turned into a war between Iran, Israel and Turkey. And the Turkish state wants to take advantage of it, to finalize its genocide policy. Therefore, the second phase of the campaign must be continued with total resistance in every field. The campaign was carried out successfully last year and achieved important results, but it is not enough. The method is not enough because of the war being waged in the world today. There are great dangers for our people, there is a great danger for the peoples of the Middle East. If a strong resistance is not put up in every field, if a strong struggle is not waged, there is a high risk that our people and the peoples of the region will face a great genocide. No one should deny this danger. That is why our people must be very, very careful. Our people must be organized wherever they are. They must organize ways of self-defense and must be in a total resistance. This total resistance must also include the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. For this campaign, the freedom of Rêber Apo, our people and the peoples of the region must always be the basis. There are genocidal attacks on our people in northern Kurdistan and a total war is being waged in every military, economic, cultural and political field. The center of this war is Imrali. Our people have always stood up until today, they have put up great resistance, but it is still not enough.
The Third World War is deepening day by day, and the genocidal attacks against our people will increase. That is why our people must rise up. They are holding rallies now; this is important; there will be a rally in Amed (tr. Diyarbakir) on October 13th; there will be a rally in Istanbul, and many alike. These are valuable. Everyone who is against fascism, genocide, and this system must take part in the rallies. Hundreds of thousands, millions of people should attend the rallies. But everything does not end with these rallies. The resistance must continue; it must be permanent. All areas, streets, and squares must be filled with peoples. Our people must stand up against all attacks on the guerrilla, language, culture, economy, and ecology. They must be in a state of self-defense, wage a revolutionary people’s war, and be in a state of total resistance. This is important. The political sphere should carry out more effective policy and diplomacy. And without a doubt, the ideological struggle must be deepened.
The same goes for Rojava. For example, the danger to Rojava is increasing day by day. The Turkish state is waiting for a good conjuncture to emerge in order to carry out a new invasion and genocidal attack. It is waiting for an opportunity to occupy the whole of Rojava. On this basis, it is working on diplomacy in every field. The Turkish state wants to benefit from Israel’s war against Hezbollah, Palestine, Lebanon, and Iran. One of its main targets is Rojava. Our people in Rojava must prepare for a revolutionary war with all its levels. They must strengthen their defense forces. It is not enough just to march and shout slogans. All of our people must organize and form a self-defense force. Everyone, from the old to the young, from women to men, must organize on the basis of self-defense. Everyone should be a member of SDF, YPG, and YPJ and defend their country, values, freedom, and existence on this basis. The same accounts for southern Kurdistan. The Turkish state has plans according to the Misak-i Mili. All our people in southern Kurdistan need to be in resistance.
There is a war against Rêber Apo. But Rêber Apo is not just a person; he stands for the whole of Kurdistan. When one reads about the plans and policies against Rêber Apo well, one understands what kind of policy is being carried out against Kurdistan. Therefore, we cannot consider the physical freedom of Rêber Apo and the freedom of Kurdistan independently of each other. We cannot consider the struggle for Rêber Apo’s physical freedom independent of defending our own existence, country, freedom, and generally human values. That is why the peoples all over the world must be in a state of permanent resistance and struggle. That is why our people should welcome the second year of the campaign in this way. Of course, the legal part of the struggle was also very important and brought positive results. It forms one of the pillars of social resistance. We must attach importance to this in the coming year as well.
The dissemination of Rêber Apo’s ideas must be done very effectively. The prison writings should be read, conferences, workshops and discussions should be held based on them. There should be a lot of programs on the paradigm of democratic nation in the media. We need an effective ideological struggle in this field as well. Again, in the coming year, a more effective diplomatic and political struggle must be waged. All of these are very important. In connection with this, I am strongly convinced that next year will be the year when Rêber Apo’s physical freedom is achieved and the Kurdish people and Kurdistan are liberated. For this, a total struggle must be waged in every field.
Footnotes:
1 Referring to Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Ocalan.
2 Kurdish for ‘Enough is Enough’ or ’It is enough’.
3 The so-called ‘National Pact’ refers to a political declaration made by the leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1920 during the First World War. The oath defined the territorial borders – including Kurdish settlement areas in present-day Iraq and Syria – and the basic principles for Turkey’s future policy. Today, Turkish nationalists often refer to the ‘National Pact’ to formulate their aspirations for Turkey’s territorial expansion.