our interviews

First of all, I would like to ask you about the positions of the different parties in relation to the ongoing isolation policy and the struggle against it; what is the approach of the systemic forces that maintain the isolation, and what is the approach of the democratic forces in contrast?

To begin, I salute the historic Imrali resistance and Rêber Apo¹ once more. The global freedom campaign aiming for his physical freedom continues with actions in the four parts of Kurdistan and all over the world. There are new developments and important actions being organized, while at the same time, constant actions continue. There are mass actions led by women and youth in Kurdistan and all over the world. While there is a higher intensity in some phases, a general increase in activity can be perceived. What is important and new, of course, is the international interest in and expansion of this struggle. Rêber Apo’s position, his situation, and his paradigm are spreading more. As this spreads, the Imrali system of torture and isolation, and thus the colonialist, genocidal mentality and system imposed on Kurdistan, is becoming more understood by many people. Many who learn about the situation are astonished; they take a clear stance and call on others to join them and take initiative in their own hands. This includes people from almost all walks of life. It started with labor unions, then artists, lawyers, and academics joined. Now Nobel Prize winners have taken an important initiative. All of these are very important and valuable. At the same time, legal initiatives have also developed further. We have repeatedly drawn attention to this development in our recent interviews.

The Turkish state now again sentenced Rêber Apo to a disciplinary punishment. The legal system is used to disguise the real problem. European law is procedural law. Cases are not heard based on the merits. In that respect, in our opinion, even if something is fabricated, if it is in accordance with the procedure, it will be accepted. Jurists know this better than us. As a matter of fact, the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) could not enforce the decision it made ten years ago. For example, its content is not important, but this is a very serious procedural situation. All kinds of initiatives can be taken from here. In this context, legal initiatives have been effective. We have stated before that we are late, but also, although we are late, the initiatives that were developed using data and information were effective. This agenda went all the way to the United Nations (UN). Now, this isolation system is being discussed everywhere. Now, a lot of pressure is put on the system of torture, isolation, and genocide in Imrali and the forces that carry it out.

In this respect, I salute once again the struggle that is developing and all those who are participating in it. They are waging a very crucial struggle that is quite meaningful and effective. It is noteworthy that not a single voice is heard from any European institution responsible for the torture, isolation, and genocide system in Imrali. The AKP administration faces the most difficulty; it got stuck in the discussions at the UN. The AKP has now been exposed, which is also very significant and needs to be well understood. It is a clear sign that, through the struggle, results are achieved. It is exposing and challenging the Imrali system of torture, isolation, and genocide, as well as the lawlessness and immorality there. The struggle has already caused great difficulties for those responsible. This is a clear fact. In this respect, it is necessary to continue and further develop the struggle. Other circles could have built up even more pressure from outside, but this has not yet happened. I wonder where that stems from. It certainly makes us think, and the Barzanis and the KDP administration quickly come to mind. Are they actively preventing even stronger reactions? On the one hand, together with the AKP and MHP, they are continuing this system of isolation, torture, and genocide in its 26th year and [the total isolation of Rêber Apo from the outside world in its] 41st month, but on the other hand, they may have an influence on the world’s silence.

I come to this conclusion by remembering the time when Rêber Apo was in Rome. At this time, Masoud Barzani submitted a file to the Rome prosecutor’s office for the arrest and trial of Rêber Apo. He wanted him not to be released, not to be free. He presented documents accusing Rêber Apo of crimes to arrest and put him on trial. We have these documents. What would a person, a so-called politician who did this then not do now? They may be behind the silence in so many circles. We need to see, understand, and investigate this well. What kind of attempts are they really making? What kind of other documents have not been discovered yet? The global public opinion says, ‘These are the Kurds’, and they don’t go into it any further. It is necessary to see this face of betrayal and expose it. This needs to be seriously investigated.

Kurdish politics can only be self-determined up to the point where it opposes the system of torture, isolation, and genocide in Imrali and demands the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. There are parties and individuals who consider themselves left-wing, but even though, for 26 years, an unprecedented system of isolation and torture has been going on, they do not make a sound. They do not oppose this; they do not even question it. Many circles in Turkey that call themselves leftists, socialists, and democrats do not do this. I ask them, Why is Rêber Apo in Imrali? They put him there because he is leading the Kurdish people’s cause for freedom, because he is fighting for democracy in Turkey, and because he is continuing the democratic revolution in Turkey with the Kurdistan freedom struggle. Or is there anything else? What kind of people are they, what kind of Kurdish identity do they have, and what understanding of freedom and democracy do they live by if they don’t question it? There is such an open fascist, colonialist, and genocidal attack, and they remain silent. There is such a great resistance for freedom and democracy, and they remain silent. They neither support the resistance nor oppose or expose the genocide. This is not the way. This aspect of the issue needs to be clarified and emphasized. It has always been stated. The litmus paper of striving for freedom in Kurdistan and democracy in Turkey is determined by the attitude towards the freedom of Rêber Apo against the Imrali system of torture, isolation, and genocide.

Everyone’s approach is well known today, but it remains necessary for everybody to make their position even more clear. It is clear that isolation, torture, and genocide are made possible by betrayal. For 26 years, Rêber Apo has been kept in such a system by both the Turkish and European governments. No one can excuse herself or himself from saying that she or he does not know about or understand what is going on. All of this needs to be exposed more, and one must unite more with the struggle of Rêber Apo. One must see her or his own freedom in the freedom of Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo’s freedom must be seen as the key to democratization in Turkey, the Middle East, and the world. Therefore, we must unite all our struggles for freedom and democracy with the global freedom campaign for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo.

The betrayal you draw attention to also manifested itself in Shengal (Sinjar) ten years ago. This is the 10th anniversary of the massacre of the Êzidi (Yazidi) community. What happened back then is being discussed in Kurdish society. Your movement played a crucial role at that time; what can be said about what happened back then?

On the 10th anniversary, I condemn with hatred the genocidal ferman² of the fascist, genocidal ISIS gangs against Shengal and our Êzidi Kurdish people. I salute the heroic struggle against this and celebrate its success. I commemorate the heroic martyrs of this struggle with respect and gratitude by commemorating comrade Zeki Shengali³, the Mam Zeki of our Êzidi Kurdish people. The genocidal attacks and the ferman continue. The resistance for the existence and freedom of Shengal and the Êzidi Kurdish people also continues. Even though ten years have passed, the genocide still continues. It continues with the AKP-MHP, and it continues with the KDP. These forces are trying to involve Iraq and many other powers in this. Massoud Barzani is running around, trying to see how he can get everyone to attack Shengal. This is a well-known reality that should not be misunderstood. Indeed, these last ten years have seen great enlightenment in terms of what is happening in Shengal. Who is who? What are the interests being followed by the different forces? Everything has been seen. The once-responsible for the genocide and its accomplices were clearly exposed, as it was also clearly seen who valiantly and heroically resisted. For ten years, Shengal has received its freedom. Its people live on the basis of democratic autonomy. The people of Shengal, the Êzidi Kurdish people, the women, and the youth organized themselves, formed their institutions, developed self-defense, gained willpower, and began to live freely. Of all the Êzidi communities scattered all over the world, probably the one that achieved to live the most according to their own perspective of life in the last ten years was the one in Shengal. The Êzidi identity has experienced its most free and beautiful period in these last ten years of resistance. Êzidi Kurdish women, youth, and people appreciate this. They are aware of this and believe in it. They will not allow themselves to be slaughtered by fermans like sacrificial sheep. They will raise their consciousness even further, organize themselves, and become strong-willed and ready to protect themselves. This community is a community of struggle.

Rêber Apo’s philosophy and the support of the HPG, YJA-Star guerrillas, and the freedom forces of Rojava have re-created this consciousness. It has brought society to its senses. In this respect, we believe that the freedom striving and social forces will develop more consciousness, more organization, and more will. Ten years have passed since there has been a trial against ISIS. There is no common attitude. One wonders how many accomplices ISIS has that no one can touch. Who had his or her hands in this? Who were the accomplices? In order to prevent them from being seen, there is no prosecution of ISIS. It is almost as if the fight against ISIS itself will be put on trial. For example, the Baghdad administration, which at the time hailed the PKK for its fight against ISIS and said it had saved Iraq’s honor, now declares the PKK a ‘banned organization’. It is an astonishing situation. I mean, is it possible to deviate so far from the truth? I mean, can facts be so trampled underfoot for simple interests? We are experiencing these things.

Some forces call what happened a genocide, but they simply name it like this and do nothing about it. For example Germany, I guess it probably has some interests in order to look a little nicer to the Êzidi community and drag them to their side to a certain extent. They named what happens a genocide, but we haven’t seen any serious action against ISIS by them. Instead, Germany files new lawsuits against the PKK almost every week. The German law, prosecutors’ offices, and judiciary, which is famous for being so eager to open PKK cases, consider the ISIS attack in Shengal a genocide but have not opened a single case to prosecute the backers of this genocide. It does not raise a voice against the attacks of the KDP and AKP-MHP that are trying to continue what ISIS started. On the contrary, they criticize those who were attacked. They take the PKK as an excuse. How many years ago did the PKK say they were withdrawing from Shengal? Our role in Shengal is over, and we withdrew our forces. There is a consciousness of freedom and democracy there. Society has gained its own will. Whenever society, especially women and laborers, develops their own will and acts and organizes accordingly, they say that this is the PKK. That’s not how it works. If it were like that, then the PKK could be very happy because it has achieved great success. But it is not only the PKK’s achievement. Everyone is contributing to this development and making efforts so that the people can live according to their will.

In short, the reality of Shengal, the genocidal ferman, and the resistance against it have illuminated everything. I would like to end my answer by pointing out that the situation needs to be well evaluated and understood: the situation of the KDP, the Barzanis, who made an agreement with ISIS and then broke the agreement and fled when ISIS attacked, leaving the Kurdish Êzidis to the massacre of ISIS, then also the attacks that took place on the western line of Southern Kurdistan, and now the attacks of occupation and annexation on the eastern line by the AKP-MHP. All of these need to be understood as connected with each other and dependent on each other. For example, the KDP’s activities could have been better anticipated. Collaboration and betrayal know no boundaries. There is nothing it is not ready to do. It needs to be approached with caution. What has been happening in Shengal for the last ten years has not been sufficiently understood. Lessons have not been fully learned. At least on the occasion of this 10th anniversary, these lessons should be better understood. This is how we evaluated the 10th anniversary. We evaluate it as a process from which we should learn better lessons. I recommend everyone approach it this way, which is the correct approach. Once again, I condemn the massacre with hatred and salute the heroic freedom resistance in Shengal.

Now we are also approaching the 40th anniversary of the historic August 15th⁴ breakthrough. Earlier, when you evaluated July 14⁵, you said that the question should be asked as what would have happened if July 14 had not happened. What can be said if we ask the same question for the August 15th breakthrough?

If the August 15th guerrilla breakthrough had not happened in 1984, if this war of freedom had not been waged persistently and stubbornly for 40 years, what would have remained of Kurdishness in Kurdistan? What would Kurdistan have become? What would have been the situation in Turkey? What would have been the situation in the Middle East? We should ask this about the August 15 breakthrough and also about the July 14 great death fast, because these are connected to each other like a fingernail with a finger.

The decision to resist for freedom was made in prison. It was the comrades like Mazlum⁶, Ferhat⁷, Hayri⁸, and Kemal⁹ who took it, and it peaked with the great death fast resistance on July 14. It was the guerrilla that put this decision made by July 14 into practice and transformed it into organization and action. Based on this, the August 15 breakthrough was launched. Our party was organized as guerrilla. The youth leadership formed as guerrilla. Also, the women’s freedom movement and its liberation struggle emerged within this guerrilla. The theory and philosophy of Rêber Apo’s came to life in the great death-fast resistance of July 14 and the breakthrough of August 15. Both were brilliant, successful implementations of this philosophy that complemented each other. Of course, there were shortcomings and mistakes, but the result was a great success. This is the fortieth anniversary of this great breakthrough. For forty years, the Kurdish people, women, and youth have been waging a war for freedom, following the philosophy of Rêber Apo and under the leadership of the guerrilla. It is an uninterrupted war. In the 1970s, the Vietnam War of Liberation was very popular. The struggle was very intense in the mid-’70s and lasted 15 years. Everyone was flabbergasted by how long these people fought and how they endured. In Kurdistan at that time, when the national question, the freedom struggle, and the war situation were discussed and evaluated, this was mentioned. Nobody believed that there could be such a long war in Kurdistan. Now that this war has completed its 40th year, it has lasted without interruption. Undoubtedly, there is a preparation period of more than ten years before that, and Rêber Apo always underlined the importance of this since all the foundations were laid there. And it was put into practice with the breakthrough on August 15. What is the spirit, emotion, thought, principle, organization, style, and understanding that created that practice? All of these were concretized over the previous ten years. The Kurdish resistance did not start with the PKK. For at least the last 200 years, throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the Kurdish people have always been in resistance. We cannot claim that the PKK started resistance in Kurdistan, but it is the first time that such a conscious, planned, organized, and uninterrupted 40-year freedom struggle has been waged. It is a first in the history of Kurdistan. In the history of the freedom struggles of the peoples of the world, it has surpassed them all. It has at least doubled Vietnam in terms of time.

I want to take the opportunity to salute the Kurdish people, youth and women, and the Kurdish guerrilla who have been waging this 40-year war. I congratulate our national day of resurrection to all comrades, especially Rêber Apo, our guerrilla forces, HPG and YJA-Star, their commanders and fighters, our people, and international friends.

Comrade Agit¹⁰, the immortal commander of the breakthrough, was later joined by comrade Zilan¹¹. She pioneered the establishment of the women’s guerrilla. I commemorate with respect, love, and gratitude all the heroic martyrs of this heroic breakthrough by commemorating those two comrades. How could such a struggle be sustained for forty years? There has always been and is great enthusiasm, excitement, consciousness, belief, and stubbornness. Rêber Apo once said that it was a leap of faith and a leap of persistence when he defined August 15th. He said it was the breakthrough of insisting on being human. He saw August 15th as the most fundamental breakthrough in the struggle to be human. Like I said, even before it finally took place, it already existed as a thought, a wish, and a dream. As I said with regard to the resistance on July 14, those who did not correctly understand the situation at the time were not in a position to put up such resistance. The same applies to August 15. This also applies to the resistance of those great pioneering revolutionaries, commanders, and freedom fighters, like Agit, Zilan, or Erdal¹². They would not have been able to take those steps if they had not properly understood the current situation at the time; they would not have been able to create such great awareness and conviction. All this is the result of Rêber Apo’s philosophy. Those comrades are the products of Rêber Apo’s genius and creative labor on the one hand and the great courage and sacrifice of Kurdish youth and women on the other. This courage and sacrifice, this consciousness, and this belief must be well understood. The correct approach is the one present in the reality of the martyrs. The creators of all these forty years are the heroic martyrs; they are its pioneers.

Now coming to the question, when we look at what is happening today, when one looks at the various practices and approaches of various forces attached to the AKP-MHP fascism, and at the fact that some circles are still developing brutal attacks in alliance aiming to destroy the PKK, crush the guerrilla, and complete the Kurdish genocide, one will see the truth. After so much struggle and so many achievements created by that struggle over more than forty years, all developments in the name of freedom in Kurdistan still have the signature of the great prison resistance, the July 14 great death fast. For forty years, the power that has created this has been the August 15 breakthrough and the guerrilla war that has continued on this basis.

Despite this, there are still those who hope that they can prevent this struggle and, accordingly, launch attacks on a daily basis against it. If there hadn’t been such a heroic struggle, if we hadn’t given so many valuable martyrs, there would be nothing left in the name of Kurdishness, freedom, and humanity in Kurdistan, Turkey, and the Middle East. There would be no value or moral left in the world either. If a free and democratic world can be imagined and seen as a livable world, an alternative world, it is inspired by the freedom struggle in Kurdistan. It is envisioned by being influenced by the values revealed by that struggle, the women’s liberation revolution, the guerrilla struggle, and mainly the ecological, democratic, and women’s liberationist paradigm developed by Rêber Apo. Without these, there would be nothing exciting, tangible, and concrete in the name of freedom, democracy, and alternative life.

In the system of capitalist modernity, the power and statist forces have slaughtered everything with their raging attacks. They are committing genocides. Rêber Apo called it social genocide, a sociocide. There is sociocide. Humanity was almost wiped out and destroyed. It is this forty-year war of freedom that resists this, thus creating social life and showing everyone that free life can be realized on the basis of women’s freedom.

August in general is a month of great struggle. The history of Kurdish freedom started with August 15th and it continues with the struggle. Every anniversary of this great resistance was marked by great martyrs. There are both Erdals who martyred in August and also comrade Zeki Shengali, Atakan Mahir¹³, comrade Ibrahim¹⁴, Huseyin Mahir¹⁵, and comrade Azime. There are hundreds of martyrs in August. I commemorate all of them with respect and gratitude.

The 40th anniversary is important. After forty years of fighting for freedom, one must assess the level of consciousness and organization of a people and the courage and sacrifice they have gained. No one can now deny the Kurdish society. The Kurdish people, women and youth, cannot be defeated; no one can break their will. They cannot prevent them from achieving freedom. No matter how much and intense the attacks, at the end, the enemy will definitely lose. As it is said, they are drowning in the blood they shed. From our point of view, we need to evaluate the following: When this breakthrough was taking place and being prepared, there were many who opposed it. First of all, we must see them well. There were those who opposed this breakthrough in the name of Kurdisness. There were also those who did it in the name of leftism. I can even say that they created a unity of various organizations in Turkey and Kurdistan in order to attack the August 15 breakthrough in Europe. There were those who called on the Kenan Evren junta to “let us lead you in destroying the PKK.” We will not forget them. We never forget collaboration and betrayal. The August 15 breakthrough was met with collaborationism and betrayal. Since August 1985, the Barzanis have been fighting against this breakthrough. They are not just fighting it now. They started this war back then. They were even trying to prevent it before. When they could not prevent it and the breakthrough was realized, they joined forces with the Turkish state and started their attack against the guerrilla. And they are still attacking today. There were also those who followed them. We should never forget this either. Moreover, the struggle is very instructive. Forty years of experience are the greatest treasure of the Kurdish people. If the lessons of these forty years are learned, if one understands and brings to consciousness these forty years of struggle, one becomes the strongest patriot, with a libertarian, revolutionary, and human stance. The August 15 breakthrough and the lessons of forty years of freedom struggle are enough to bring a person to this level.

How did the last forty years pass? How was this war fought through the years? Every moment of it was full of difficulties and obstacles. As Rêber Apo said, it was a breathless process. Indeed, it is necessary to understand and learn from Rêber Apo’s evaluations. It is necessary to bring every moment of this war to consciousness, to reveal and take its lessons. It raises our consciousness, helps us organize, strengthens our faith, and makes us invincible. This is what makes us the strongest.

On the occasion of the 40th anniversary, I call on everyone to show more efforts to understand the forty years of freedom struggle correctly, to draw the correct lessons, to be sufficiently aware of the meaning and importance of the leadership of the party and the guerrilla, as well as the popular resistance. Comrade Hayri drew particular attention to this when launching the July 14 resistance. He said that if those who say they are fighting for the freedom and liberation of Kurdistan are consistent, they should take armed struggle as a basis. It was an instruction, an order, a testament. Our movement, the Kurdish people, youth and women fulfilled this instruction. It was embraced and its requirements were fulfilled. May our martyrs rest in peace. Today, the guerrilla, the party, people, youth and women’s movements are stronger, more conscious, more organized, braver and more sacrificing than ever. They will never fall back, they will go even further, will always develop the struggle for freedom much more in order to keep alive the goals and memories of our martyrs. I salute the August 15 breakthrough, commemorate the martyrs with respect and gratitude, and celebrate our guerrilla.

With regard to the war that has developed as a result of the breakthrough; what is the situation of it after forty years?

The HPG BIM published the balance sheet for July just recently. Everyone should take a look at it, because under the AKP-MHP fascism, the Turkish Ministry of Defense and the General Staff are hiding the outcomes of this war and are trying to cover up everything. It is conducting a despicable invasion and annexation attack, but there is not a word about it in the Turkish press that is controlled by the AKP-MHP. They are trying to hide what they are doing from everyone. To counter this, the HPG informs the public on a daily basis and publishes its monthly balance sheets. Two Sikorsky helicopters and a UCAV were shot down. Dozens of aggressive invaders were punished, and many of them were wounded. A significant amount of military material was destroyed, and more than 200 strikes were carried out. Of course, the enemy didn’t stop either. They carried out hundreds of attacks and bombardments and used chemical weapons, tactical nuclear bombs, thermobaric bombs, and phosphorus bombs. These are all there in the statements of the HPG-BIM. Obviously, the war is focused on the Medya Defense Zones¹⁶. Right now, it is most intense in Zap and Metina. But not just there; also in North Kurdistan and in the other areas of the Medya Defense Zone, a high-intensity war continues. There are HBDH militias and YPS forces that are waging war in the city as well as in the mountains. One can point out that there is a great deal of resistance on many levels. On the occasion of the 40th anniversary of the August 15 breakthrough, the Kurdistan Freedom Guerrilla, all of our self-defense forces are celebrating, and they do so by further developing their tactics and techniques. They are fighting sacrificially everywhere to realize the spirit and the goals that were brought about through the breakthrough of August 15. There is a heroic resistance. The guerrilla does not let the fascist genocidal occupation and annexation pass. Not in Zap, not on Mount Bahar, not on the ridges of Metina, not on the slopes. Every day, they are taking action after action. Within so many attacks, the fascist AKP-MHP hordes cannot move; they cannot get results. This is a clear fact. On behalf of our party leadership, I salute this heroic resistance developed by the HPG and YJA-Star guerrillas. I congratulate them on their success, and I especially congratulate everyone who contributed to the shooting of the helicopters and the UCAV. At the same time, I commemorate the heroic martyrs with respect, love, and gratitude. They are the ones who have managed to most intensively unite with the forty-year history of resistance. The guerrilla does not recognize any obstacle; they are going against the fascist, colonialist, and genocidal enemies with great courage, will, and enthusiasm, and they are holding them to account. They are taking revenge for their oppression of the Kurdish people. The guerrilla is a force of revenge, a force of accountability, and it acts with this consciousness. Therefore, no oppressor can get away with anything. In the 41st year, this struggle will continue with the same embracement and willpower.

At this point, I would like to emphasize one aspect; in September 2002, we announced the establishment of the Medya Defense Zones and declared them liberated areas. Now they are bringing all kinds of ‘village guards’, gangs, and mercenaries into the region and trying to take the areas, but everyone should be aware that we are sticking to our declaration of that time. Whoever enters these areas without the consent of the guerrillas and intends to occupy them will be fought. We will resist, fight them, and finally hold them accountable.

But to come back to the current situation, there has been a change since July 3. What kind of change happened, and how did it happen? Previously, the hordes of the AKP-MHP were landing troops on the hills and mountains with helicopters; they opened the roads from the Turkish border, thus trying to occupy them. They made so much effort and held some places, but they could not occupy the places they targeted. What happened since July 3rd is different from that. They were using that tactic again, but once again, they have not succeeded. In order to be successful, together with the KDP and the Iraqi administration, they are establishing a new border with armored vehicles and tanks on the line from Batufa, Bamerni, Enishke, Kadisha, Amediye, and Derelok to Sheladize. At the same time, they are trying to encircle the area from the south. On the one hand, they are attacking from the north with landings and by building new roads, and on the other hand, they are attacking from within the south. They are completely encircling this area. What is the importance of this? All these towns and cities involved in this plan are under the Iraqi and KDP administrations. The Turkish troops pass and settle with their permission. Tens of thousands of Turkish soldiers, hundreds of tanks, and armored vehicles move and settle together with the KDP and Iraqi forces. The Turkish border has now shifted to such a tactic. The Turkish state, under AKP-MHP fascism, calculates with the occupation and annexation of so many places. Now some people say that the KDP is supporting it, that the Iraqi state is turning a blind eye, and so on, but this is not the case. There is no support, no turning a blind eye; this is a joint operation. These three forces are carrying out this operation together. The Turkish Republic is occupying these areas under the name of a buffer zone, and the Iraqi administration, the KDP administration, and the Barzanis have sold this area to the Turkish Republic. They have not only sold it; they themselves are also waging a war against the freedom guerrillas resisting this occupation and annexation. And in exchange for what? The Iraqi state gets some electricity and water. In exchange for electricity and water, they have sold the homeland. What is the KDP doing? It is making money. It sells oil secretly. The Barzani family has become one of the richest families in the world. This is on the basis of the secret partnership they have developed with the Turkish Republic.

Now the KDP says that they don’t know how the Iraqi ministry came up with the idea that the PKK set fire to the markets, but these are just lies. They have to provide evidence; otherwise, nothing they say can be believed. Why do they say these things? If the people of southern Kurdistan and Iraq understood what the KDP and the Iraqi government were doing, they would tear them apart in the air. They are openly committing a crime. What can be done? Which society can accept something alike? We call on the people of the South and the Iraqi people to inform themselves more about what is going on and the realities of the political actors. Our friends have made a call, and I strongly agree with it. Nobody should believe in demagoguery. They are spreading so many lies. In order to cover up and conceal their betrayal, collaborationism, and the selling of the lands of Iraq and South Kurdistan to the Turkish Republic, and to prevent it from being discussed, they make up lies, saying that the PKK is doing this and that. They are trying to deflect the agenda. The KDP press, like the AKP-MHP press, wages a strong special and psychological warfare. Every day, they are spreading new lies. No one should believe them. The current situation should be better understood. There is no war between the PKK and the KDP; there are occupation and annexation attacks by the Turkish Republic; there is a KDP that is a partner in this; there is collaborationism; there is betrayal. Kurdistan has been marketed and sold in exchange for material benefits. The freedom guerrilla of Kurdistan, the guerrilla of the PKK, is resisting this. What would they do if the guerrilla wouldn’t resist? The guerrillas have sworn an oath to strive for freedom and to protect it. They always fulfill their oath. And they are not afraid to go to the limit. and indeed, they continue to do so.

Under fascism, society faces constant attacks. There is such an agenda in Turkey and Northern Kurdistan. The AKP-MHP fascist attacks on language, nature, and culture have been discussed recently. How accurate are these discussions? How correct are the attitudes? What do you think the right approach should be?

My comrade Cuma gave a comprehensive interview on this issue last week. He not only listed the practices that are being carried out, but he also clearly put forward and expressed the answers to the question of what the attitude of the people, particularly the women and the youth, should be and how they should struggle. I agree with everything he stated. There is nothing to add to these. AKP-MHP is attacking the Kurdish language and culture; they arrest young people and torture them. Some seem surprised by this, but that is the reality of the Turkish state. This state has been doing this for 100 years, and in the last twenty years, it was the AKP-MHP that was leading this. The people that are now surprised: were they blind until now, or did they just not care about what was going on? There is a big blunder here. I would like to draw attention to that dangerous situation. I mean, this negligence must be overcome. The MHP is in power; it is the MHP that rules the Turkish state today, ideologically, politically, and practically. On what basis has the Tayyip Erdogan administration been surviving for years? It survives based on the MHP. Well, is there a more fascist force than the MHP in Turkey? Is there a force that is more hostile to Kurds, women, and society in general than the MHP? Some circles don’t call the MHP fascist; what do they think? That the MHP has changed, that it has become moderate? The people shouldn’t deceive themselves like this. As we have always pointed out, resistance against fascism must happen on all levels, because fascism is a total attack on all levels. First they attack Rêber Apo, then the guerrilla and the PKK. If you don’t unite with them, they will attack everything you stand for, everything your identity consists of; may it be your language, culture, land, forest, or all the sources of wealth above and below ground. This is not happening now; it has been like this since the foundation of this state. Everyone should be aware of this. We should not deceive ourselves. Let us open our eyes, our hearts, and our consciousness, and let’s see what kind of annihilation attack the Kurdish people are facing. Rêber Apo has warned us many times. He said, “Tomorrow you will not be able to speak your language, stay in your village, find bread, or be called by your own name. They won’t even give you a grave.” We say that we are doing everything in line with Rêber Apo, but we forget what he predicted long ago. We should not forget, and we must not fall into heedlessness. There is the fiercest attack on society and nature, on everything Kurdish. The prisons are filled to the brim. Humanity is facing a massacre. Young girls and women are being subjected to rape. The underground and above-ground riches of Kurdistan have been looted and plundered for years. Forests are being devastated. Its water is being negotiated with Iraq for the realization of the Kurdish genocide. Kurdish water and energy. All sources of wealth are being used to keep a handful of money lords alive. There is an attack on life itself. And even the deceased are not left to rest in peace.

Some still act as if there is a democratic government in Turkey, as if life under them is worth living and that there were only a handful of attacks. They say that you have to oppose it a little, and that would be enough. “They ban our govend¹⁷? Then we’ll dance anyway.” It’s not as simple as that. There is a total fascist, colonialist, and genocidal extermination attack. The same, even more severe and similar to the ferman that ISIS directed against Shengal on August 3, 2014, has been applied to the Kurdish people in North Kurdistan for decades. I’m not saying we should do this or that. I agree with what comrade Cuma said. We need to be more radical, more effective, and more comprehensive in the actions that we take. If they dare to attack your language like that, it means you have to strengthen the awareness in this regard. Can we boycott speaking Turkish? Can we boycott going to Turkish schools? Can Kurdish society show such a will? One has to evaluate such options. Fascism can only be broken with effective, active resistance.

In this respect, especially the youth, they must be more conscious, consistent, and organized. They should be more active. I talked about radical struggle before and said that there is a need to be more radical because passivity against fascism led to the current situation. Passive, liberal, limited, and weak attitudes made AKP-MHP fascism so aggressive. If there had been stronger resistance, it would not have dared to do these things. They see that the more they attack, the less organized society is, and the easier it is to oppress, scare, frighten, and assimilate. Genocide is being practiced, and the Kurdish people are wanted to be Turkified. The Kurds must be able to break away from Turkishness and return to their own roots and identity to a comprehensive degree. They must be able to exist and live as Kurds. And of course, this is only possible through strong organization. I mean, what will you do if you get a diploma from these Turkish schools? You should be happy if you learn to read and write in your own language. Rêber Apo said more than 40 years ago: “I went to the best statist schools and forgot everything I knew and learned until then.” What are Kurdish youth looking for in those schools? What are they trying to find? Are they going to find what Rêber Apo couldn’t find? I mean, they can’t. The youth are responsible for this more than anything else. The youth should think correctly, look holistically, and get rid of the heedlessness. What is going on and what the state tries to implement can be called systemization. The biggest crime is systemization. One has to break with the system in the most radical way. One has to break away from this male-dominated mentality, politics, anti-Kurdish, anti-woman, anti-social mentality, and system. We will build our own lives together as a society. This does not only apply to Kurds. The way to salvation for all laborers, workers, women, and the oppressed everywhere is through this. Only when you get rid of this system, when you break away from it, can you save yourself. I invite everyone to this to become organized accordingly.

As far as the conflictual and complex situation in the Middle East is concerned, Ismail Haniyeh, the head of Hamas’ political bureau, was recently killed in Tehran. What force or forces carried out this attack and why was this done in Tehran?

We are currently evaluating these issues. But this latest incident has not been fully evaluated by our administration yet. It has not made any statement. It will do so and may give a statement if it deems it necessary. In this respect, I can give a brief personal opinion. What about the war in Gaza and what happened in Tehran? These are not disconnected things. It is not a very different situation. The attack in Tehran was a result of the war in Gaza. In Gaza, in front of everyone’s eyes, millions of people are genocided for self-interest, for simple material interests. The conflict was fought for that. There were those who wanted this to break out. How was the Israeli government able to attack immediately in such a comprehensive manner? It seems that it was ready beforehand. Also, other forces, like America, were ready to support it. And who was the one who rushed into this preparation and made provocations? It was Tayyip Erdogan. Everyone knows this. Tayyip Erdogan made ISIS attack Kobane. Tayyip Erdoğan also led Hamas into such a war out of nowhere. He was hoping that he would frustrate Israel’s energy and trade corridor and impose his own. But when he saw the determination of Israel and the US, he started begging and pleading. For nine months, he has been begging for a ceasefire. So if you wanted a ceasefire, why did you attack and start a war? When he realized that the war would not go the way he wanted and that he had been tricked, deceived, and used as a provocateur, he tried to get out of this situation, but he couldn’t.

After the war started, we saw many powers joining hands and making a fuss that it was Iran that started this war, that the Iran-Israel war had started, and that they were creating virtual wars. How many people in this world want an Israeli-Iranian war? How many powers were there that tied their interests and existence to a war between Israel and Iran? We saw these. And who was at the forefront of them? Tayyip Erdogan and the AKP administration. I mean, one just needs to watch their press, their statements, and with whom they have held meetings in the last nine months. They have been seeking and trying with all their might to provoke an Iran-Israel war. They wanted to do it over Gaza, but it didn’t work. They wanted to do it through Greece, but it didn’t work either. Now, they want to develop a fight between Hezbollah and Israel this time. Some forces within Israel also want this. I can’t evaluate the interests of all of them at this point, but the AKP and MHP leadership definitely want this more than anyone else. Why was Ismail Haniyeh killed in Tehran and not elsewhere? He was staying in Tehran the longest. He was staying in Turkey the longest. He carried a Turkish passport. We know he traveled there from Turkey. He was protected by the Turkish intelligence service. He was staying for a very long time in Qatar. Everyone knew this. It was being said and written. Why was this attack done in Tehran and not in Qatar or Turkey? For the very thing I mentioned, to start an Israeli-Iranian war, Now, as soon as the incident happened, one must simply follow the programs of the AKP press, and one understands. They are saying that the war has started now. They did it like this with Hezbollah before, and now this is their next step. They are spreading everywhere that Iran and Israel will go to war because they have tied their own interests to this war. If Israel and Iran fight, they will both be dependent on Turkey, everything in the region will change, and the AKP will save its power position. If this does not happen, the system of capitalist modernity and the current AKP-MHP policies will be in contradiction, and conflict will arise between them. If it does not make Israel fight Hezbollah and Iran in Lebanon, it will end up fighting Israel in Cyprus. Cyprus and itself will be next. That is why Erdogan is afraid. AKP-MHP fascism has dragged Turkey into a disaster. Rêber Apo has repeatedly expressed this and warned everyone. He said that a democratic Middle East based on Kurdish freedom is good for everyone. Accordingly, he proposed a democratic Middle East confederalism. Otherwise, he said, it would be a disaster. And the biggest disaster would be Turkey. Now the Tayyip Erdogan administration has put Turkey into a disaster and is trying to get out of it by drawing Iran into the war. It is trying to prevent the disaster from deepening. What conclusion do I draw from all this? Who did it? They point to Israel. It could be possible. Some forces may have done it. Why was it done in Iran? It is definitely time to start an Iran-Israel war. Who wants an Iran-Israel war the most? The AKP-MHP administration. For Israel, some forces are also partners with them. So I am surprised why no one is questioning Hakan Fidan, the Turkish intelligence service, or the Erdogan administration. He was staying in Turkey, his residence was in Turkey, and he was traveling with a Turkish passport. Wasn’t Turkey responsible for ensuring his safety? Why didn’t they take care of him? Why didn’t they ensure Ismail Haniyeh’s safety? Did they say Hamas is over and we have nothing more to do with Ismail Haniyeh? Were they complicit in this? Those who are truly investigating this incident must investigate Erdogan’s involvement. They cannot draw any conclusions without taking his role into consideration. As the saying goes, whoever benefits the most from an incident should be the one to be questioned. Now it is said that this incident will lead to an Israeli-Iranian war, and if that happens, it will benefit the AKP MHP the most. They want it to happen. They did it with Ismail Haniyeh; this time they are trying to save their own skin by calling Mahmoud Abbas. This is actually a very sufficient reason to look for traces of Turkey in this incident.

As a movement, we are against such a war. Definitely, the people are oppressed through them. Just as the people of Gaza were oppressed, such a war will bring the oppression of new peoples. These are not wars of freedom, not wars of democracy, not antifascist wars. They are colonial wars. They are wars of interest. They are imperialist wars. It is a war of exploitation. We must oppose it then. I can also say this about the Iranian administration. The Iranian administration acted really prudently in the face of the provocations in Gaza. It did not give in to provocations. Now this is a more serious provocation, and Iran has a new administration. The president and the administration have changed. We expect the new administration to better understand and evaluate these realities. Therefore, we think that it will show prudence not to come to these provocations. We think that it is also in Iran’s interest to show it. Therefore, Iran should definitely not come to Turkey’s provocation by other powers. It should not be a party to such a war.

Two female activists are currently on death row in Iran, which has caused a lot of serious reactions. What can be said in this context, as well as regarding the new government that you have already mentioned?

Women’s movements are more sensitive, and many of them made strong statements, made calls, and emphasized strong critics. They want to prevent it. These are important and meaningful, and we attach importance to this attitude and these calls. It is very important that the women’s movement has shown such sensitivity and activity.

The mass movement that developed under the slogan “Jin, Jiyan, Azadi” has become an ideological and cultural revolution in Iran. It will celebrate its second anniversary in mid-September. The fact that it came from women’s power and that it was led by women gave it special importance. If women are so effective, so conscious, and so organized, then there is something there. We have already evaluated, in the past, why the Iranian government opposed this so much. It caused so many attacks, imposed executions, and imprisonments that it seems unintelligible. This movement is the honor and glory of Iran. This attitude of the women of Rojhilat and Iran led the women of the world. It saved Iran’s honor in the world. It is indeed necessary to show an attitude of respect and gratitude. But for the male-dominated mentality, the power, and the state, this is not understandable; instead, they attacked. The current government had many options for action, but they decided to insist on saying that foreign forces were behind it. The women in Rojhilat and the women in Iran want freedom. They want to decide self-determined what clothes they wear. What does this have to do with foreign powers? Where and with which foreign power did the woman establish relations? These are extreme plumb prejudices. The other is that a new administration has been elected. The current president condemned the violent crackdown on these movements then too. He said that the problem should be solved and that women’s demands should be listened to. He also pledged that he would do this. The environment created by the “Jin Jiyan Azadi” revolution led to the election of this president. The president should be aware of this. He made a promise, and because of this, he actually won the election. Now that he is in power, everyone expects him to fulfill his promise, to evaluate the environment in which he was elected correctly and approach it accordingly. These executions, repressions, and arrests must end, especially for women. With a new evaluation, there should really be a change and liberal steps. This will strengthen Iran in every respect. As the Kurdish Freedom Movement, we are of this opinion. It would not weaken Iran; it would strengthen it in every respect. Our expectation is to stop these things, like executions, immediately. That is our call. Beyond that, we need to listen to women; we need to listen to and understand the youth. They are the pillars of society. They are the sustaining executive forces. It is necessary to develop change, transformation, and order according to what they want. This will not weaken Iran; it will strengthen it and cause development. It will make Iran a power based on society and unite the country with its history. All freedom movements, including women’s liberation movements, have always been present in Iran. Today, if Iranian women have been uprising for two years, if they have demanded freedom with the slogan “Jin Jiyan Azadi,”  if they have influenced the world so much, it is because they are based on that history. Therefore, it also unites Iran with its history. We hope and expect that the new administration will change and correct these issues quickly.

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