our interviews

In about a month’s time, your global campaign for the physical freedom of the leader of the Kurdish people, Abdullah Ocalan, and the democratic solution of the Kurdish question will be one year old. What can you tell us about the developments of the campaign, especially in recent weeks, and what is your outlook for the future?

Before I answer your question, I would like to take the opportunity to commemorate several upcoming anniversaries that are of great importance for us as freedom movement and for our people. Recently it was September 7th, the anniversary of the martyrdom of comrade Kemal Pir¹. The anniversaries of the martyrdoms of Mehmet Hayri Durmush² (September 12), Akif Yilmaz³ (September 15) and Ali Cicek⁴ (September 17) are also approaching. I commemorate all the martyrs of the revolution and struggle for freedom with respect and gratitude by remembering the comrades that gave their lives in the Great Death Fast⁵. There is also the Sewreg resistance that took place on September 9, 1979⁶. I therefore commemorate Cuma Tak and his five comrades that martyred in this resistance with respect and gratitude. Also September 4, 2011 is the anniversary of the martyrdom of comrade Simko Serhildan, a valuable commander from eastern Kurdistan (Rojhilat) that was pioneering the guerrilla force in the Casusan region within in the Qendil mountains in the war against the Iranian state. I commemorate all the martyrs of Rojhilat with respect, love and gratitude.

Today, after almost completing its first year, the global freedom campaign has reached a very important level. A serious public opinion and agenda have been formed. I am confident that this campaign will continue very strongly in the coming year and will without any doubt achieve success.

During this recent period, 69 intellectuals who received the Nobel Prize sent letters to the European Committee of Ministers (CM), the Council of Europe (CoE), the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT), Erdogan, and many other relevant institutions and individuals. Because there was so much social pressure, the president of the CM as well as the ECHR and the CPT responded to those letters.

It is becoming clear that this struggle is really strong. And it is also clear that when effective work is carried out and when one believes in the cause, it is possible to get results. All these international institutions have been silent for years; they have not responded to all kinds of initiatives and all kinds of efforts. They have played the blind, deaf, and dumb. But now they were forced to speak out, to make public statements, to respond to these letters. This is important because these institutions are all complicit in this crime against humanity committed by the Turkish state. They have been supporting this for years. They are partners in the crime that Rêber Apo⁷ has already been held under a system of torture and isolation for more than 25 years and 7 months now.

The Imrali system is an international system. It is these powers themselves who established this system. And the Turkish state has been waging a genocidal war against the Kurds centered on Imrali for years. Now, as the global struggle for freedom develops and grows, as the determination and insistence of our people and our international friends on this issue is seen, as all the accomplices in this crime against humanity are being exposed, of course these international institutions have to speak out and make statements in some way. This is an important achievement, but the struggle shouldn’t just limit itself by this.

These institutions must uphold the international conventions, since they are the ones who created them. The Turkish state is currently violating and trampling on all international conventions and international law and is even breaking its own law. The international institutions should be able to enforce the international law and international conventions on the Turkish state. They cannot accomplish this by just making statements.

This struggle must continue until it reaches its aim. On September 17-18, the CM of the CoE will meet to discuss the violations of law committed by the Turkish state in Imrali within the last ten years. There is serious sensitivity and work on this issue by the Asrin Law Office, many democratic circles, the international friends participating in the global freedom campaign, and generally our people. They are following this process closely. It is extremely important that the ongoing genocidal crime, this crime against humanity, is on the agenda of the CM and that an attitude on this issue emerges. The CM must force the Turkish state to implement international conventions and international law. Accordingly, they must set an end to the system of isolation and torture. Rêber Apo’s health, security, and freedom must be ensured. The institutions mentioned must take responsibility for this. They are the ones that established the Imrali system. They should no longer be partners in this crime against humanity.

A conference for peace and democracy was held in Berlin. Intellectuals and academics from many countries attended this conference. Many Turkish academics, intellectuals, and writers also attended this conference. This was a very important and valuable work. I congratulate and salute everyone who contributed to all these efforts and thank each and every one of them. But I especially want to highlight the success, that many Turkish intellectuals and academics also attended the Peace and Democracy Conference. There are very valuable individuals in Turkey who we can call real intellectuals, real writers. They are very sensitive to the Kurdish question and to the democratization of Turkey, and they see themselves as responsible for it. They approach Turkey’s fundamental problems with the consciousness and sensitivity of conscientious, moral intellectuals. This is really valuable. In 2016, they developed a serious initiative called Academics for Peace. Hundreds and thousands of intellectuals and writers took a common stance against the war. They for example started a signature campaign, which created a very important agenda in the country and had a serious political and social impact. I expect the Turkish intellectuals to again develop a similar attitude more strongly in this current. The intellectual world has always approached social problems in a sensitive and responsible manner. This is a requirement of being an intellectual. People who are not interested in Turkey’s basic social problems, basic historical problems, who do not think about the solution of these problems, who do not struggle for this, who do not strive for this, cannot be intellectuals; they cannot call themselves intellectuals. It is important that these peace academics take a stronger stance in the current process. They should take a strong stance against the isolation and torture system and against the war. The end of this war depends on the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. The democratization of Turkey and the democratic solution of the Kurdish question depend on the freedom of Rêber Apo. Turkish intellectuals should play a stronger role in this process. It should not be an approach limited to conferences and workshops. They should have a stronger influence in this process.

On September 1, a strong social movement was shown in Turkey, especially in northern Kurdistan, Wan (tr. Van), Amed (tr. Diyarbakir) and Istanbul. There were important marches and strong rallies. For a long time, especially in the last year, northern Kurdistan had a significant participation in the global campaign. Particularly the Marches for Freedom and Giving Freedom a Voice were really important. Also the celebrations of Newroz and April 4th⁸ were also received strongly. In the coming second year of the campaign, northern Kurdistan must return to become the center of the freedom campaign again. Northern Kurdistan and Turkey must lead the freedom campaign. In this sense, the will put forward on September 1st must be sustained. It must gradually spread to all of Kurdistan and Turkey. Northern Kurdistan and Turkey must be able to lead the social resistance and political struggle in the four parts of Kurdistan and abroad. The emerging power, this potential must be transformed into an organized will and initiative. A peace and democracy movement against isolation, fascism, war and betrayal in Turkey and northern Kurdistan must be organized. And this must be a continuous struggle, a resistance.

One year is coming to an end. On October 10, we will enter the second year of the movement. We must wage a legal and political struggle; we must succeed in spreading the paradigm of Rêber Apo even more successfully worldwide and thus further deepen the social struggle so that we can guarantee the health, safety and above all physical freedom of Rêber Apo in the second year of the campaign. We must make this campaign a success. This means making the struggle a struggle of the masses, expanding the resistance with determination and raising it to the global agenda with faith.

The agreements between Ankara and Baghdad have already been evaluated to a certain point, and now the first practical results of the agreements are already being visible. In the last few days there have been a number of Turkish attacks on southern Kurdistan. Not only the guerrillas, but also particular the civilian population has been targeted. What can you tell us about this? How is this possible and what needs to be done now?

First of all, I commemorate all the comrades that martyred in the months of August and September with respect, love and gratitude. Especially Berwar Dersim, Nujiyan Amed, Orhan Bingol, Tekin Goyi, Yilmaz Dersim, comrade Serhat, Xebat, Zamani and the friends who were martyred in Kela Meme. Also comrade Rosida, Eylem and Sozda Armanc.

After the agreement between Iraq, Turkey, and the KDP, several attacks and massacres against civilians developed. Gulistan Tara, Hero Bahadin in Seyidsadiq, three citizens in Dukan, three patriotic people in Sharbajer, and a shepherd in Bradost were murdered just recently. In Behdinan and Bradost, many patriotic people were massacred before, but there has been a very serious increase in attacks on civilians in recent years. These massacres are particularly increasing after the agreement between Ankara, Baghdad, and the KDP.

In general, a serious massacre is taking place in the Behdinan region. Villages are being burned, bombed, and destroyed. Nature is being deliberately set on fire. People are being deliberately driven out of regions. What is happening here is genocide. The Turkish state is committing genocide. It is committing a crime against humanity. And now, the Iraqi government has decided to be a partner in this, making it also accountable for what is going on. We gave a statement the other day and pointed out that from now on we will hold Iraq as responsible as the Turkish state. Especially after the agreements between Baghdad, Turkey, and the KDP, these massacres of civilians have increased even more. They massacre patriotic people and children in a reckless manner. A child was massacred in Sharbajer. Massacres through the Turkish state had already taken place before, which were only possible because Baghdad and the administration of South Kurdistan kept quiet. They were already accomplices and have taken this to a new level.

I respectfully commemorate all the patriots who lost their lives in these attacks and offer my condolences to their families and our people. I also strongly condemn and curse those who are partners in these genocide policies of the Turkish state.

It is important to emphasize the role of the KDP in this matter. Now they have brought many gang members and mercenaries from the occupied areas in Northern and Eastern Syria to Behdinan. In Turkey, many of them were recruited and trained in camps, and now they brought them to the areas that they occupied. The role of the KDP in this is crucial. In 2014, the Turkish state, KDP, and ISIS made an agreement. According to this agreement, Mosul would be handed over to ISIS, and the KDP would surrender Shengal (Sinjar) to ISIS and withdraw its forces from there. After that, it would use both as a defense of Mosul and as a center for its attack on Rojava, particularly the Cizir Canton. After ISIS would take the Cizir Canton, it would be handed over to the KDP and included in southern Kurdistan. After that, Kobane and Afrin would be taken and handed over to ISIS. Kirkuk would be handed over to the KDP, and Turkey would become a partner in Kirkuk oil. Turkey, KDP and ISIS made an agreement on this basis. In order to hide Turkey’s role in this agreement, ISIS came and seized the Mosul Consulate. At that time, Ozturk Yilmaz was Turkey’s consul in Mosul. Later he made some statements, but they silenced him. Turkey did this to hide its role in the deal it made with ISIS and KDP. Later, when some problems arose between these forces, ISIS turned its attention to Hewler. So when ISIS shifted its direction to Hewler, the situation changed. After that, the KDP had to go to the guerrillas. Barzani went and thanked my friends in Makhmour. Because ISIS was really going to take Hewler and they were going to dismantle Makhmour. Turkey tried to hide its real intentions with such a game. And it is a game that is yet not over. Today we see that ISIS is in Behdinan. The Turkey-ISIS-KDP alliance has never been broken. It was Turkey that organized ISIS from the beginning. The international powers have benefited from ISIS, but the main organizing force of ISIS, is the AKP itself. This is a fact. Now they have included Huda Par and Hizbulkontra⁹ in this alliance. On the basis of this alliance, ISIS is now in the Medya Defense Zones¹⁰, in Behdinan.

This needs to be understood very well. The Turkey-ISIS-KDP-Hizbulkontra alliance continues to be updated in the current situation. Hizbulkontra already played a serious role in the Battle of Kobane and in ISIS’s general attack on Rojava. The same alliance is continuing again right now. And with this alliance, the Turkish state is trying to get results. They have now included Iraq in this process with these latest agreements because the Turkish state cannot wage this war alone. It has been waging a genocidal war of occupation and annexation since 2019, and it has been experiencing a very serious blockage and deadlock for years. It cannot get results. Indeed, it is almost as if the guerrilla has locked the Turkish state in the Medya Defense Zones, especially in the areas of Zap and Metina. In order to be able to break this lock, the Turkish state has included Iraq in this and is trying to involve Hizbulkontra more actively. And the KDP already had an alliance with ISIS from the beginning. That alliance was never broken. The whole aim of the KDP is to liquidate the freedom movement and bring the Kurdish genocide to a conclusion. The whole history of the KDP is like that. Let’s not go into its ancient history, but it is important to point out some things in terms of recent history. The KDP carried out very serious political and diplomatic work to get the PKK on the terror list. It worked very hard and succeeded. It got the PKK on the terror list. The KDP played a very active role in the international conspiracy¹¹ as well, in order to liquidate Rêber Apo. Through the liquidation of Rêber Apo, they hoped that they could liquidate the freedom movement. There are the so-called Washington Agreements. After they were signed, Rêber Apo was forced to leave Syria. The Barzanis play a very active and decisive role in the development and continuation of the isolation and torture system. They also play a very serious role in the invasion attacks on Rojava. They wage a serious political and diplomatic struggle and take part in its occupation. Currently, Afrin, Serekaniye, and Gire Spi are the work of the KDP. It is a result of their betrayal and agency. The KDP does everything it can to prevent the Rojava Revolution from being recognized internationally. It never calls the Rojava Revolution a revolution. It does everything it can to suffocate this revolution. It carries out both political and diplomatic work against the revolution to defame and liquidate it. KDP not only took part in the invasion attacks of the Turkish state and legitimized them, but it also took full siege to strangle the revolution. It dug deep trenches between Rojava and southern Kurdistan. It defames it everywhere. It is taking part in this genocidal war together with the Turkish state to liquidate the Freedom Movement. Together with ISIS and Hizbulkontra, it is working actively in the four parts of Kurdistan. The leader of Hizbulkontra came to Hewler the other day and met with Massoud Barzani. Both are working with the Turkish Special Warfare Department, since they are part of it. One could state that the KDP is its ‘Kurdistan Branch’.

A very strong stance must be taken against this treasonist-agent network. At the moment, the position of the KDP and Barzani has gone beyond collaborationism. This situation cannot be defined or conceptualized only by collaborationism. It is a network of betrayal and espionage. They are developing serious espionage and treason within the Kurdish society. They are creating serious decay and are rotting patriotic values. All these attacks are based on information provided by the KDP and Parastin. Comrade Abbas also elaborated this in his last interview. Many guerrilla casualties were caused by intelligence information provided by the KDP and Parastin. The same applies to civilian casualties. Wherever there is an attack on southern Kurdistan by the Turkish state, there is definitely location information provided by Parastin. Patriots are massacred with information provided by Parastin. In Kurdistan, they want to eradicate patriotism and leave only agents and traitors. They want to break the will of the people, force them to surrender, and take them into submission.

Especially the intellectuals in Kurdistan must take a strong stance against this treasonist-agent network. Generally our people must take a strong stance and struggle. They must not harbor any agents in their midst. These agents should not be able to live in our society. A strong social and political struggle must be waged against this collaborator-traitor agent line. Especially intellectuals, the patriotic parties, organizations, structures, and tribes in Kurdistan must take a very strong stance against it. They really pose a great danger for the future of our people. It threatens the free and democratic future of our people, our peoples. On this basis, I call on everyone to take a stronger stance.

A new threat to the Kurdish people and their freedom movement is developing, or rather an old threat is being revived by the Turkish state – Hizbulkontra, which you have already mentioned. Can you tell us a little about what they are and why they should be seen as a danger?

Hizbulkontra is a force organized by the Turkish Special Warfare Department. It worked as a branch of JITEM¹² for years. It was used as a trigger force against patriots in Kurdistan in the 90s, and they brutally murdered thousands of patriots. Many intellectuals, religious people, and patriots, generally Kurdish society, were tried to be intimidated. They wanted to break the will of the people. A great fear was wanted to be created in Kurdistan. When the international conspiracy developed and Rêber Apo was taken hostage, the Turkish state hoped that the freedom movement would be liquidated. At the same time, they started to worry about Hizbulkontra because they had created a mass of notoriously brutal killers that were now of no use to them anymore. That is why some assassinations were carried out by JITEM. The assassination of Gaffar Okan was actually a plan of them so that the state could go after Hizbulkontra, using it as justification. Their leaders were killed; some of them were arrested. They were tried to be neutralized in this way for fear of posing a threat to the state. They were kept inside for years. But then they realized that the PKK was not liquidated. After the conspiracy, the PKK continued its struggle by growing and spreading in Rêber Apo’s line of resistance, following the new paradigm of the Democratic Nation. The movement had turned into one struggle for the whole region and the whole world. Both AKP and Erdogan are kept in power to liquidate the movement and bring the Kurdish genocide policy to a conclusion. They have been waging war against the movement for years, by all means and methods. But they failed to get results, and the Turkish state needed this contrastructure again. It released the Hizbulkontra agents it had arrested. It opened space for them in Kurdistan and provided them with a lot of material means. In the last general elections, the AKP carried four of them into parliament. In order to win the municipalities, they carried out serious work with the support of the state in Elih (tr. Batman), Merdin (tr. Mardin), Amed, and some other cities in Kurdistan. The AKP-MHP fascist regime opened all kinds of opportunities to them. In some places, the people who were elected as so-called deputies mainly shifted AKP votes to them. They brought them back, and now they try to present them everywhere. The fascist government took them on the anniversary of Milazagir (tr. Malazgirt). In Ahlat, Erdogan, Devlet Bahçeli, the leader of Hizbulkontra, and the force commanders of the Turkish army posed together. What does that picture express? That is the picture of the anti-Kurdish, genocidal, and colonialist Turkish fascist state.

Hizbulkontra was an organization of the Special Warfare Department from the beginning. It worked together with JITEM. And now they need it again because they cannot cope with the movement. They fought with all kinds of weapons; they couldn’t get results. Now they took Hizbulkontra, this triggering force, and released them again. They want to use it as a political and military force against the freedom movement, against the patriotic Kurdish people. The fact that the leader of Hizbulkontra arrived in Hewler immediately afterwards and met with the other contrastructure in southern Kurdistan, the leader of the treacherous traitor-agent network, already completes this picture.

Hizbulkontra has nothing to do with Kurdishness or Islam. They also have nothing to do with Islam. They exploit the religious feelings of the Kurdish people. For years, the AKP has been exploiting Islam under the mask of religion and trying to use Islam as a weapon against the society in Turkey, against the Kurdish society, and against the society in the Middle East. Just as Erdogan’s religion and faith are money and power, Hizbulkontra’s only religion and faith is being a hitman for the Turkish state. I don’t speak about power, because they are not given that kind any. They are solely hitmen. They will use them, and then they will liquidate them again.

Our people must wage a strong struggle against this paramilitary force, against this force that is hostile to the people and that has become a part of the genocide policies and the war. The free press must expose them. I find the efforts of the free press in this regard very insufficient. This is a very dangerous structure. Right now, the Turkish state cannot cope with the Kurdish Freedom Movement. For ten years, it has been waging a war of genocide. It has been waging it with all kinds of techniques, all kinds of dirty ways and methods. It has used chemical weapons and thermobaric bombs. They took the KDP with them, had an ISIS attack, and made Iraq a partner. They realized that they did not achieve anything, so they have now brought Hezbulkontra back on stage in the political and military arena. Hizbulkontra is now seriously organized in southern Kurdistan. They are organizing agents in southern Kurdistan, in Rojava, and in North and East Syria. They are trying to develop a network of agents. That is why they have opened an office in southern Kurdistan. The Turkish intelligence, the Barzanis, and Hizbulkontra meet every day. They meet, plan, and act together, and fight against the freedom movement. A serious political, ideological, and social struggle must be waged against this very dangerous structure.

How should the AKP’s role be seen in the concept of the international struggle against the Kurdish liberation movement?

The AKP is a project by the US, Britain and Israel, that was brought to power in 2002 on the basis of one goal – to liquidate the freedom movement. They wanted to eliminate all democratic revolutionary dynamics in Kurdistan and the Middle East in the 2000s. The stage of the Third World War made this necessary out of their perspective. The international conspiracy was developed as an important stage of the Third World War. The US was going to make a serious intervention in the Middle East, in the center of Iraq. They did not want the freedom movement and the revolutionary democratic forces in the region to take advantage of the upcoming crisis and chaos created by the Third World War, so they launched the international conspiracy. They did not want a democratic revolution to develop in Kurdistan and they did not want a democratic revolution in the Middle East to develop. The democratization of Turkey and the democratization of the Middle East was seen as a danger and a problem for international capitalist modernity, for the global capitalist imperialist system. Therefore, they brought the AKP to power. Through the AKP, they tried to control the Kurds by abusing religion and the Islamic. Since most of Middle Eastern society believes in Islam, they wanted to control the Middle East through Turkey through AKP. They wanted to carry out their intervention in the Middle East in a comfortable way by creating the grounds and conditions for it. Therefore, AKP was developed as a project. While the AKP came to power in Turkey, it had a serious relationship with the deep state. They together gained power. The deep state is NATO’s Gladio structure in Turkey. This goes without saying. In order to achieve its goals, AKP started organizing ISIS. It did so from the very beginning. And the deep state and the Turkish Gladio supported the AKP and paved the way for it.

That two-and-a-half-year dialog process that some people call the “solution process” was a tactic. Because the AKP government was in a serious crisis at that time. There had been a revolution; it upset their balance; it turned everything upside down. They were in a serious conflict with the Fethullah Gulen sect. The guerrilla struggle had become very strong. The Revolutionary People’s War was serious. This shook their foundation. So it developed that tactical process. But the AKP never deviated from its goal. The AKP exhausted all its arguments in this process. And after 2015, it fell from power. When it fell from power, they organized the so-called coup attempt of February 15. They needed something like this in a controlled manner. Through it, they were able to declare martial law and seize everything. The AKP seized the entire state. It also developed an alliance with the MHP. On the basis of its own ideology and understanding, it attempted to restructure all the institutions in Turkey with its army, police, judiciary, parliament, education, everything. On that basis, they also wanted to make a new constitution. They tried to establish a fascist, dictatorial constitutional system in Turkey. “This will be the new century of Turkey,” Erdogan said. As a date, he targeted the 1000th anniversary of the 1071 Milazagir Victory. “Until that year,” he said, “AKP will fully establish its hegemony. I will be the second Ataturk.” He set out with such motivation, with such a purpose.

So, what is the current stage? The current stage is a complete collapse. He needs to liquidate the freedom movement. This is his main obstacle. He cannot bring the Kurdish genocide to a conclusion without liquidating the freedom movement. Without it, he cannot completely build his fascist, dictatorial constitutional system in Turkey. The Kurdish people developed a great resistance together with their international friends against the AKP-MHP fascist government, the deep state of Turkey, and Gladio that have been running Turkey since 2015. At the current stage, the AKP is experiencing a major collapse. There has been a serious meltdown within the AKP for years. Many Kurds, many liberals who believed in the AKP, who thought the AKP was liberal and democratic, who really believed that it would solve Turkey’s problems, especially the Kurdish question, broke away from it after it was unmasked, after its true face was revealed. All the rent-seeking, plundering, racist, chauvinist, and fascist cliques gathered around the AKP. And now there is a clash of power between them. There is a power conflict within the AKP-MHP-Ergenekon-ISIS alliance within the Turkish state, within the regime. There is a problem with rent sharing. In order to liquidate the freedom movement, in order to bring the Kurdish genocide policies to a conclusion, they insistently keep the AKP alive; they are trying to keep Erdogan in power so that they can bring this plan to a conclusion. They constantly cover up those conflicts; they constantly divert the agenda. For example, the AKP media report 24/7 on the Gaza conflict, but you look in vain for reports on the genocidal war they themselves are waging, the massacres, and the persecution of Kurdish society for which they are responsible. There is a great economic collapse in Turkey; there is terrible impoverishment, and they are trying to cover it up. There is a terrible moral collapse; they are trying to cover it up. There is a terrible political crisis; there is an intra-state conflict; they are trying to cover it up. There are protests everywhere; workers, laborers, environmentalists, and pensioners have risen up; everyone is in revolt; society is going insane; and families are committing mass suicide. They cover up all of this. They say that the Third World War may break out in the near future. But there has been World War III for more than 35 years. In order to cover up all this, they discuss Gaza; they discuss the question of who will be the president in the CHP; they discuss the fight against terrorism; they propagandize weapons and UCAVs. They are trying to cover up all the problems, trying to deflect the agenda. This is an expression of collapse in Turkey. The picture in Ahlat is a picture of the collapse of the Turkish genocide regime, the AKP-MHP-Hizbulkontra-Ergenekon regime. It is the declaration of this.

Let’s turn our attention away from the AKP and look at the CHP. It has just held its charter and program congress in Sewas. How do you assess the current processes within the CHP?

With the support of the society, the CHP achieved a very important success in the municipal elections on March 31, becoming the leading party in Turkey. So the society, particularly the Kurdish society, naturally had expectations. There was an expectation that the CHP would take a stance towards the solution of the Kurdish question, against war and isolation. Almost half a year passed since the municipal elections. Let’s look at the CHP’s performance, its politics, understanding, and style; it cannot be said that it has been very successful or that it has responded to these expectations. Two and a half months after the municipal elections, the CHP filled the agenda with discussions on ‘normalization’ and ‘softening’. It wasted time, and through this, it bought time for the AKP-MHP’s fascist regime. It gave them a little bit of breathing space. The society criticized the CHP for pursuing an unbalanced policy whose direction was unclear. Until today, CHP has filled the agenda with debates about who will be the president. It is a very unnecessary and inappropriate agenda. They rarely hold rallies to bring up some of the problems of society, problems of hunger and poverty, and they try to create an agenda mostly through the economy. This is, of course, also a fundamental problem. But where do the economic problems stem from? The AKP-MHP have poured all of Turkey’s economic resources into the war. That is why Turkey’s economy has collapsed. It is a fact that there is a very serious economic crisis, depression, impoverishment, and hunger in Turkey. Of course, this is a fundamental problem, but this problem is a result. It is a result of the Kurdish genocide war. The economy was destroyed by the war. When we say this, we are not saying that Turkey’s economic problems, the poverty and hunger of the society should not be on the agenda, that the government and the regime should not be exposed through this, that opposition should not be made on this basis. Of course this should also be done. But CHP is conducting politics in a very opportunist, extremely liberal line without pushing this regime, this power too much.

They do not make an opposition policy that responds to the expectations of society. The most fundamental problem of Turkey is the unsolved Kurdish question. It is the reason for all these problems and the reason why the state has collapsed. They have collapsed the state with all its institutions in order to liquidate the Kurds and bring the Kurdish genocide policies to a conclusion. They condemned society to poverty and hunger. The war, the Kurdish question, is at the center of this. The CHP did not voice a single word, a single sentence, against the isolation of the Rêber Apo. What is the CHP’s attitude towards the isolation? There is a great lawlessness here. The law of Turkey, the law of the state, is not being applied. CHP always talks about justice and law. But what justice and law are they talking about? If the law is not applied in Imrali, how will you bring the law to Turkey? How will you apply the law in Turkey?

The fundamental problem of Turkey is the terrible war of genocide, based on Kurdish denial and extermination. The CHP does not show a stance and does not voice a single word against the war. It does not have a single policy for the solution of the Kurdish question. A party that has no policy and no opposition to Turkey’s fundamental problems cannot make a radical opposition and cannot wage a radical struggle against this fascist government. The CHP has failed in this regard. You can’t really talk much about the CHP as opposition. There are discussions of change on the CHP’s agenda. There are slogans of changing CHP, changing Turkey. The CHP is the party that founded this state. The founding philosophy and ideology of this state is the founding philosophy and ideology of the CHP. Without updating this founding philosophy and ideology, without changing and overcoming this monist, centralist, denialist, and exterminationist founding philosophy and ideology, the CHP cannot renew itself and therefore cannot renew Turkey. Now they are holding a statute convention in Sewas (tr. Sivas); afterwards they will hold a program convention. They will restructure the CHP; they will go for a new change. They have already made some changes. For example, equal representation. This is the result of a struggle for democratic politics. If today the CHP is discussing equal representation, tomorrow the CHP will also have to discuss the co-chairmanship system in the municipalities. The democratic politics and the struggle for freedom are changing everyone. But beyond that, how will the CHP really change? What kind of program and what kind of strategy will the CHP put forward for the Kurdish question?

It is also important that the charter and program congress was held in Sewas. There was the historic Sewas Congress before the War of Independence. And before the war of independence, a Kurdish-Turkish alliance was established with this congress. Through the joint struggle of Turks and Kurds and other communities of different identities living in Turkey, the independence war was won. Today, there are as many graves of Kurdish sons in Canakkale as there are graves of Turkish sons. Kurds also paid a great price in the establishment of Turkey and the Republic. Therefore, Turkey is a common homeland. It is the common homeland of Turks, Kurds, and all the other peoples living in Turkey. In this sense, it is meaningful to hold the convention in Sewas. Maybe it is also a message against Ahlat; we don’t know. The CHP may also be sending such a message to its own people. But the content of this message is important; its implementation is important. The constitution of 1921, which was made in Turkey after the Sewas Congress, was a democratic constitution. It accepted autonomy, especially autonomy in Kurdistan. Now, if the CHP wants change, transformation, “New Turkey with a new CHP,” then the CHP must update its founding philosophy and ideology. In the second century of the Republic, the CHP should fight for the democratic solution of the Kurdish question and democratize Turkey. It should aim for power with this mentality. Otherwise, neither the CHP will change, and therefore neither – as the CHP puts it – will Turkey change. In other words, if there is to be change, it must be on this basis.

To turn to another aspect towards the end of our interview; how do you assess Turkey’s current foreign policy, especially in relation to Syria? How would you elaborate the change in relations with Egypt?

Until recently, when Erdogan spoke of Sisi, he always insulted him and tried to throw sticks between his legs. He has called him all sorts of disgraceful names, but now they have suddenly sat down together. This didn’t come out of nowhere, of course, but has a reason. It also has to do with the deterioration of the Turkish government and the constant defeats in the fight against the Kurdish freedom movement. Erdogan is trying to make good relations with all the countries in the region in order to take advantage of them. This is the one main reason for his meeting with Sisi.

In the Eastern Mediterranean, during the period when relations with Egypt were deteriorating, Egypt made very serious progress in the Eastern Mediterranean. It created a big area of dominance. Energy lines and agreements were made, and Turkey was kept out of them. That is how Sisi is discussed in Turkey, and now accordingly they say, “We need to be included in this equation somehow. We need to take the initiative in the Eastern Mediterranean again. Therefore, we need to negotiate with Egypt.” Indeed, Turkey has not been very much involved in the projects and equations to be formed, especially on the Red Sea-Eastern Mediterranean; it has been kept outside of them. That was the main reason why Turkey was behind the October 7 Hamas attack. It was based on sabotaging these plans. Another dimension is that through Sisi, Turkey actually wants to soften Damascus on the basis of their interests and policies. On the basis of Kurdish genocide policies, he is trying to motivate Assad through Sisi to make Damascus fight against the Kurds and take a hostile position. He is trying to get him to take a position. This is the main reason. It is conducting a genocide attack against the Kurds. It is also conducting a neo-Ottoman policy, an expansionist policy in the region. Egypt historically has a very important place among the Arab countries. It is a state that has always been in a leading position. In this sense, Erdogan is making an effort to neutralize and silence Egypt. This is closely related to the relations with Damascus.

Now it is carrying out the same effort with Russia. Russia also attaches importance to relations with Turkey due to the Ukraine War. It needs trade with Turkey. It is trying to reduce Turkey’s support for Ukraine. Turkey is a NATO country. In this way, it is trying to balance NATO, the Western bloc, especially America, and the rest of the world. In its own way, it is also pursuing policy in Russia. Russia carries out its Syria policy by taking Turkey’s interests into consideration. It is also looking out for Syria’s interests. Now it is conducting a policy towards the Kurds based on all these interests. It does not want to completely antagonize the Kurds against Russia. It is trying to carry out a balancing policy on its own. Turkey, on the other hand, wants Russia to take more positions against the Kurds. Russia’s current policy is as follows: Russia wants Rojava to surrender to the regime, and it wants Turkey to update the Adana agreement in order to solve the problem of North and East Syria together with the regime. They want to prevent Turkey from acting alone and only according to its own interests. They want that they do it together with Syria. When Turkey updates the Adana agreement, it wants to add a lot to it. It wants to get much more concessions. It aims to completely liquidate the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, liquidate the Rojava Revolution, and genocide the Kurds. It is also trying to establish its hegemony over Syria. It has already dragged Syria into chaos for years. When we talk about North and East Syria, we also need to consider the US. The US wants North and East Syria to surrender to Turkey and to the KDP. The various international policies directed against the forces and peoples of North and East Syria are all very dirty.

Russia is an important power in Syria. It has established a serious basis and has very good relations with the regime. It is the crucial factor that enables the survival of the regime. This is a fact. It is also a fact that it has very good relations with Turkey. But the Kurds should not be sacrificed to these dirty relations of interest. The peoples of Syria should not be sacrificed to this. This is not in Russia’s interest, nor is it in the interest of the people of Russia. What is right is for the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria and the Assad regime to reconcile and come to an agreement. It should be resolved through negotiations on the basis of the democratization of Syria. Turkey’s genocidal, occupying, annexationist and expansionist policies must be opposed. These should not be allowed any longer. It is not to be a partner in these policies any longer. This must be put an end to.

Turkey is conducting a dirty policy and wants to take advantage of everyone. Russia is an influential power in Syria and has a very important dominant weight in BRICS. They may probably accept Turkey as a member. The world conditions have changed. There is no single centered world system anymore. Multiple power centers have emerged and even more are emerging. At this stage of the Third World War, it is becoming more evident that multiple power centers will emerge. The political system of the 20th century has collapsed. International institutions all over the world are bankrupt. This is one of the main reasons why the UN is so ineffective, why international institutions are so ineffective. Now they want to strengthen NATO again. Because it does not have the strength it once had. It got weak.

The political system of the 20th century with all its alliance structures experienced a serious collapse and bankruptcy. In the 21st century, in this new phase of the Third World War – this is now a very important phase and a final phase – the region will be redesigned. The political balances in the region will be re-established. Multiple power centers are emerging in the world. There is no longer a world based on blocs and rigid things like it was during the Cold War and in the 20th century. Multiple power centers are emerging. Turkey is now acting according to this reality. It says, “I can be in NATO; I can create my own agenda for candidacy in the EU, but I can also be in BRICS; I can develop alliances and policies in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa, and I can benefit from everyone.” Particularly now, one of the main goals of this is the effort to benefit more from Russia in ensuring the Kurdish genocide and liquidating the Rojava Revolution. Turkey is fighting against the freedom movement with the support of the whole world. It is waging a war against the Kurds. This war will not yield any results. This brings more destruction for Turkey. As we have stated before, and as Rêber Apo has expressed very well, the Turk cannot exist through the absence of the Kurd. A new Turkish century cannot be created through the genocide of the Kurds. If there are no Kurds in Mesopotamia, there can be no Turks in Anatolia. With this policy, with the Kurdish genocide policy, with this expansionist policy, Turkey is leading to great destruction.

Is there anything else you would like to mention at the end?

I would like to highlight the importance of the ecological struggle as one of the most fundamental struggles of our age. Our planet is being destroyed. Our country is being destroyed, plundered, and devastated. The geography with all its culture, history, and everything is being destroyed. The basis of human life is destroyed. We cannot survive without this planet, without its water, soil, air, and sun. Therefore, the struggle for ecology is very important. And right now there is great ecological destruction in Turkey. There is great ecological destruction in Kurdistan as part of the genocide. There is a policy of plunder in Turkey. Most recently, a person was murdered in Hopa. In order to intimidate the ecology movement, the environmental struggle, and break the will of the people, they are carrying out these massacres. The society must never take a step back. A united self-defense and ecology movement must develop in Kurdistan and Turkey. A strong struggle must be waged. And this struggle must be united. Otherwise, there will be no clean soil, no clean water, no clean air, and no trees left for society and human beings to live with. This is one of the reasons for the madness in society. All cities are concreted. There is no green, no clean air, no oxygen. Both economic destruction and environmental destruction disrupt the nature, genetics, psychology, and spiritual structure of society. It makes people cease to be human and society cease to be a society. So at the end, I want to call for a stronger and more united ecological struggle.

Footnotes: