our interviews

Firstly, I would like to address the complete absence of communication with the leader of the Kurdish people, Abdullah Ocalan. Also, I would like to talk with you about the global campaign for the physical freedom of Abdullah Ocalan, which you have evaluated in several broad formats. In particular, what should be the approach and participation in this campaign now?

As you pointed out, there is no news or information from Rêber Apo¹. There is a systematic system of torture and isolation. He was not allowed to conduct any meetings with his lawyers during these years. From 2013 until 2015, there were some meetings with delegations of the HDP. Through those, the public, our people, and we have become more informed about the situation of Rêber Apo and the policies implemented in Imrali. However, this does not mean that the isolation has been broken or overcome and that the conditions of health, safety, and freedom of Rêber Apo have been ensured. In fact, 26 years of imprisonment is itself a system of isolation and torture. For more than 41 months, there has not been any news from Rêber Apo in any way. There is an absolute lack of communication. Actually, it is not 41 months, but more. When we talk about 41 months, we are referring to the last phone call that Rêber Apo had with Omer and Mehmet Ocalan in March 2021. But that wasn’t a meeting either. The phone call did not provide any information about Rêber Apo’s state of health, nor did it tell us anything else about the current conditions on Imrali. Nothing was discussed in that call. It just lasted one or two minutes. Anyway, Rêber Apo also criticized that kind of exchange. “You are being played,” he said. “My lawyers should meet with me.” He pointed out that it is his right to meet with his lawyers. Nothing much could be understood from that call, and when Rêber Apo took a stance against this form of exchange, the state intervened and cut off the call. Therefore, rather than these 41 months, we can say that there has been an total lack of communication since June 12, 2019.

From May 2 to June 12, the lawyers had three meetings with Rêber Apo, and there were also several family meetings, but since then there has been no information. Also, through those meetings, we learned little about the situation of Rêber Apo, the conditions in Imrali, and the security and health conditions. But after that, an absolute lack of communication and isolation continued. In other words, there has been no communication with Rêber Apo since June 12, 2019. There is no information about what the general situation is in Imrali, and there is also no information about what the health and security situation of the fellow prisoners is. Now, while this is the reality, AKP officials are trying to deceive the people so that Rêber Apo can meet with his family whenever he wants. They say that he would be allowed to meet his family, but that it would be the movement that would prevent those meetings from taking place. They spread this kind of propaganda. They try to create a picture like Rêber Apo would want to find a solution, but the movement would prevent it. It is understood that they are waging a very intense special war and developing perceptional operations. The more the enemy fails to provide an explanation for the current isolation, the more it gets stuck because of the social and public reactions and the attitudes and reactions expressed by many international, leftist, socialist, libertarian, and democratic circles. It cannot explain this criminal situation. Because right now the Turkish state is committing a crime against the law, a crime against humanity. It has completely abolished and violated both its own and international law. The situation in Imrali right now is a crime against humanity, no matter how you look at it. In order to cover up this crime, in order to create a different perception, and in order to somehow explain what they cannot explain, they are lying. This is how they try to deceive and fool these groups. This reveals the gravity of the situation the Turkish state is in.

Recently, there was a United Nations session. This situation of isolation and an absolute lack of communication was also put on the agenda there. Many questions were asked of the Turkish delegation, and they could not explain the situation. They did not even dare to name it as what it is: isolation. Why are they applying these disciplinary penalties that they name as reasons why Rêber Apo cannot conduct a meeting? What disciplinary offense can be committed by a person who is in absolute isolation? This is a policy. The global campaign for the freedom of Rêber Apo has brought about very important results and put the Turkish state in a difficult situation. The Turkish state is so stuck that it does not know how to explain and legitimize this crime against humanity. It is inventing a thousand and one covers for it. They lie and try to deceive everyone. No one is fooled by this.

There is going to be a meeting of the Committee of Ministers (CM) of the Council of Europe (CoE) in September. The so-called ‘Right to Hope’ is going to be on the agenda. The lawyers from the Asrin Law Office were evaluating the upcoming meeting and made it clear that they were preparing for this meeting to raise important demands there. We are following these developments closely. The CoE and the CM are, in fact, also partners in this crime of isolation. The European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) and the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) are accomplices to this crime committed by the Turkish state. They are the forces that established the Imrali system, this system of isolation, torture, and genocide. And they have been watching this for years and remained silent about the torture and genocide policies of the Turkish state. Now, these forces need to take a serious change of stance. These forces should no longer be partners in this genocidal crime, this crime against humanity. Turkey does not abide by any international convention or law. Therefore, international institutions are also responsible for this. First and foremost, the CoE, the CPT, the CM, and all the other institutions and mechanisms affiliated with the CoE. The CoE is the main culprit in the current situation. It must put an end to this criminal situation. It should not be a partner in this. Instead, it must put forward an approach and policy in accordance with law, justice, human values, and morality. This is important; this system of torture and isolation must end.

There has been a significant legal struggle as well. The fact that we can discuss this today is the result of a broad struggle. It is the result of the global freedom campaign. Just recently, 69 Nobel Prize winners have expressed their support for the struggle for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo and against the Imrali system of torture and isolation. They wrote letters to many places and decisive institutions. The CM and the CoE are just two of them. As far as we observed, they also wrote a letter to Erdogan and many other institutions and international organizations. This is an extremely valuable approach. This kind of work needs to continue. For 26 years, Rêber Apo has been resisting in Imrali in the name of human values. He is resisting for the freedom and equality of peoples, for democracy, for the freedom of women, and for the freedom of all oppressed identities. Therefore, he represents the conscience of humanity and the values of humanity. Today, everyone in the world who seeks justice, freedom, equality, and truth is defended by Rêber Apo’s resistance. The freedom of Rêber Apo is the freedom of all of us. It is the freedom of all peoples. It is not only the freedom of Kurds; it is the freedom of humanity. In this respect, we need to continue this struggle more strongly; we need to further spread Rêber Apo’s paradigm. This work is very valuable.

The Middle East pillar of these efforts is too weak. There are also some gaps when it comes to the efforts made in Europe, worldwide and in Asia. But especially in the Middle East, the importance of these efforts is now being understood much more. It is necessary to carry Rêber Apo’s ideas, projects, perspectives, and paradigm to all societies and peoples of the Middle East and to all of their intellectuals, artists, democratic groups, women’s movements, youth movements, and democratic circles. Also, it is needed to bring all these people together through the paradigm of Rêber Apo, because right now the center of the 3rd World War is the Middle East. The Middle Eastern society is crying blood. Violence, war, massacres, and genocides are taking place everywhere. Right now, Kurdistan is the center of genocide. The Turkish state is implementing a terrible genocidal policy against the Kurds, while Israel is implementing a terrible genocidal policy against the Palestinians. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been massacred by the Israeli army. The other day, they bombarded a school, and over a hundred people were massacred. Genocides are being practiced, and gradually, this 3rd World War is intensifying and spreading, centered on Kurdistan, Palestine, and the Middle East as a whole. The Turkish state is doing its best to spread this war even further. Likewise, Israel is also deepening this war with its current genocide policies. Rêber Apo’s projects, the paradigm of the Democratic Nation, and the system of Democratic Confederalism are the most fundamental concepts to form a solution to all the problems faced in the Middle East. As Middle Eastern society becomes acquainted with these ideas and as Middle Eastern intellectuals and other circles, groups, and movements in the region who are in search of freedom, equality, justice, and democracy become acquainted with these ideas, I believe that a very strong democracy movement and struggle for democracy will develop in the Middle East. The Kurds and their freedom movement have been pioneering this for nearly 50 years. There is a serious awareness in this regard.

But if we manage to develop this more strongly on the basis of spreading the paradigm and ideas of Rêber Apo to the region, this will bring the democratic revolution in the Middle East closer, and this situation in which dozens, maybe even hundreds, of peoples are suffering under chaos, war, and massacres, where hundreds of thousands are losing their lives, will come to an end. It is necessary to particularly develop the struggle within the campaign for the freedom of Rêber Apo in the Middle East very strongly. Again, the women’s movement must also play a very strong role in the campaign. Until now, of course, women and young people have led the movement to a great extent. They have played a crucial role, especially in social mobilizations. The women’s movement, especially the women’s movement through Jineolojî², has made significant labor, effort, and struggle in carrying the paradigm of Rêber Apo. However, we see that the ideas developed by Rêber Apo regarding women’s freedom have the greatest impact on the world today.

In the history of mankind, there have been many movements and groups of people who have pondered, thought, theorized, and practically fought for women’s liberation, just as Rêber Apo, and of course there have been many female leaders. Various socialist leaders have also made very important determinations and evaluations on the subject of women and have engaged in an important intellectual effort on this issue. However, no one has been able to concentrate and deepen on women’s liberation as deeply as Rêber Apo, to engage in such a deep intellectual, theoretical, ideological, philosophical, systematic, and intellectual level, and to demonstrate the practical power and application of this. This is a fact. If we manage to carry the thoughts, labor, effort, and struggle developed by Rêber Apo on women’s freedom, I strongly believe that we are able to achieve crucial results. The Kurdish freedom movement will carry out this struggle together with the women’s movement. Therefore, we definitely need to wage a stronger struggle. If we can carry out a stronger multidimensional struggle, both in terms of spreading the paradigm, the social struggle, particularly the struggle to be waged by the women’s movement, and the legal struggle, we can definitely physically liberate Rêber Apo in a short time, and the global campaign will be successful. The current level of the campaign and the results it has produced herald this to us.

We are currently approaching the 40th anniversary of the breakthrough that was achieved on August 15³. The place of this historical move in your struggle is known. Looking at the current situation, how do you elaborate on the historical breakthrough?

First of all, I congratulate the August 15 breakthrough to our peoples and commemorate comrade Mahsum Korkmaz⁴ with great respect, love and gratitude. I commemorate all the martyrs of freedom and revolution with great respect, love and gratitude and reiterate the promise that we will definitely bring their dreams and aspirations to success and victory.

Again in this month of August, there were very valuable comrades that martyred. Comrade Atakan Mahir⁵, Zeki Shengali⁶, Engin Sincer⁷, Sari Ibrahim⁸, and comrade Azime. Many valuable friends martyred in the recent period. In northern Kurdistan, comrade Herakol Ekin fell and the comrades Firat, Bahoz, Sema, Ronahi and Dilgesh fell recently in the Medya Defense Zones. In August, many comrades martyred both in northern Kurdistan and in the Medya Defense Zones⁹, especially in the region of Zap and Metina, whose names I have mentioned and many more I cannot mention.

The August 15 breakthrough has great meaning and significance for the Kurdish people, for the peoples of the Middle East, and particularly for women. To consider the 15th of August breakthrough, the guerrilla struggle, and the armed struggle only as a narrow military struggle of a people, the Kurdish people, as a war of legitimate defense would be an insufficient way of understanding and defining it. From our point of view, the August 15th breakthrough is a move toward enlightenment in Kurdistan and the Middle East. With the August 15th breakthrough, a great revolution of mentality took place in Kurdistan, a great people’s revolution took place, and a women’s revolution took place. The disbelief, frustration, pessimism, and hopelessness created by the enemy in Kurdistan society were destroyed. Kurdish society woke up again and became aware of itself. This affected Middle Eastern society, and today, it is leading the democratic revolution.

In other words, the August 15th breakthrough created a very strong ground for change, renaissance, and enlightenment in the Middle East in every aspect and in every dimension. It revealed the revolutionary reality and the militant reality of the movement. This developed within the people’s army. Later on, it was comrade Beritan¹⁰ who formed the identity of the women’s army. Just as comrade Agit formed the identity and personality of the people’s army, comrades Beritan and Zilan¹¹ formed the identity and line of resistance of the women’s guerrilla, the women’s army. This is not a classical army. The guerrilla army in Kurdistan, with its men and women, the people’s army and the women’s army, is a highly ideological, philosophical, organized, strong-willed, and conscious structure with a revolutionary, libertarian identity. Their struggle has become the vanguard struggle of the people. Within this struggle, true democratic politics was born. It formed the basis for the achievements in Rojava, the values created in northern Kurdistan, and a strong consciousness in southern and eastern Kurdistan. It created the reality of an organized people. All these gains emerged through this struggle. The society that has become conscious, strong-willed, organized, and liberated has created a very strong legacy of freedom. Undoubtedly, the military dimension of this, the legitimate self-defense dimension, is of key importance. Through this, an intertwined level of development has emerged. And today, our people, the peoples of the Middle East, and humanity are in dire need of this. In a place like the Middle East, at a time when the 3rd World War is taking place, when the blood of peoples is flowing everywhere, when terrible suffering is being experienced, and when society needs great defense, organized power, and self-defense, the guerrilla struggle is even more vital. In terms of Turkey in particular, in terms of geography, in a country where so many genocidal attacks are being carried out on the Kurds, legitimate defense and self-defense are indispensable. This is an essential need.

In this sense, following the footsteps of comrade Mahsum Korkmaz and comrade Beritan, our people’s army and women’s army restructured themselves, and according to the character and reality of this age, according to the understanding of democratic modernity, it has revealed a very important level of struggle and legitimate self-defense. Both in tactics and technique, the guerrilla, the people’s army, and the women’s army are giving the second-largest army of NATO, one of the most numerous armies in the world, a real challenge today. For five years without interruption, the Turkish army has been conducting an all-out attack with all kinds of techniques. It uses all kinds of power and all kinds of dirty methods. From chemical weapons to all kinds of other banned weapons, but still they cannot get results. It is in shambles. Now the guerrilla has modernized itself according to the reality of this age and continues to even further develop. The effects of this will be seen more and more strongly in northern Kurdistan in the coming months and years. I believe that with the restructured understanding of democratic modernity and the restructured guerrilla warfare, understanding, and tactics, this legitimate struggle will be continued in the strongest way.

The war in southern Kurdistan has reached a new dimension with the inclusion of the Iraqi government. How do you evaluate the current developments of this war and the latest situation on the guerrilla front?

I commemorate with great respect, love, and gratitude the comrades who were martyred in Zap and Metina in this recent period and also convey my greetings and love to all the comrades of the YJA-Star and HPG forces who are currently resisting. Indeed, on the occasion of the August 15 anniversary, a very strong wave of action has developed. I also congratulate the YJA-STAR and HPG command structures on this.

Of course, there is uninterrupted resistance. Our fedai¹² comrades are resisting, struggling, and putting forward very strong actions. And they are doing it in such a way that the occupying Turkish army is facing great difficulties wherever they enter. It is almost traumatized. In the current situation, they have taken the KDP with them, and they have also taken the support of the Iraqi government. With them, they are trying to liquidate the guerrilla and completely occupy and annex southern Kurdistan. The Turkish state has mobilized all its power for this. But still, they are not getting results. Everywhere, it suffers such huge blows, which it hides from society. These are reflected in public opinion, but the state tries to cover them up. The Turkish state is conducting a policy of genocide. One part of this genocide policy is conducted in southern Kurdistan. It is a policy of genocide, occupation, and annexation against the Kurds that is currently being carried out in southern Kurdistan. The administration of the regional government, especially the KDP, is in betrayal. Some circles are not part of it, but they do not realize the reality. Our people, the other organizations in the south besides the KDP, PUK, and Goran, regardless of whether they are tribal, democratic, or religious circles, must become aware of the current reality. The Turkish state is currently conducting a policy of genocide in the South. It is conducting a policy of occupation and annexation. It is conducting a Misak-i Milli¹³ policy. It is conducting a hegemonic, imperial policy over Iraq. In other words, the people of southern Kurdistan, our people, the Iraqi society, and the intellectuals should know and comprehend this fact very well. Right now, what can be seen in southern Kurdistan is that the geography of Behdinan is being burned to the ground. The Turkish army is burning everywhere. All the forests, vineyards, gardens, and fields are on fire. Kurdistan is on fire. They bombed all the villages; hundreds of them have been emptied. Some talk about 600–700 villages that had been forcefully emptied. They are trying to completely destroy the countryside. In 1993 and 1994, over 4000 villages were burned and destroyed in northern Kurdistan; now they are conducting the same policy in southern Kurdistan. Villages are being bombed with warplanes. People’s vineyards and gardens are being burned and bombed. Are there guerrillas there? The people speak for themselves: “It is our houses, villages, vineyards, and gardens that are being burned. There is no PKK here; there is no guerrilla here.” This state is hostile to the Kurds and their land. It is hostile to Kurdish trees, animals, and insects, and it is even hostile to their graves. Police stations are being built on cemeteries. They intend to destroy a history, geography, and the memory of the people. This is genocide. It is doing the same thing Israel is doing. It has been doing bad things for a hundred years. Now, for the last ten years, under the fascist regime of AKP-MHP and Ergenekon, it has been doing even worse. And the KDP is playing a decisive role in this. One just needs to take a look at the KDP press. Kurdistan is being burned and destroyed, but they do not even cover this for a minute. They don’t seem to see it as even newsworthy. Kurdistan is being occupied, annexed, burned, and destroyed, and they do not even manage it for one or two minutes in their summarization of the news. A speech made by Erdogan, by one of his ministers, or by one clansman who is not satisfied with the Kurdish struggle is the first news item in the KDP press. Kurdistan is being destroyed. A systematic genocide is being practiced. But there is not a single news item on this. And when the people speak, when they rise up, they silence them; at least they ignore them. Is there any other example of a similar attitude in history? I mean, betrayal is not unheard of, but a betrayal this deep – where is there anything comparable? Their attitude is simply incomprehensible.

Now many are discussing how it could have come to this, that so much destruction has occurred in South Kurdistan. The question is what they expected. Whoever decides to become a traitor will become a traitor. And you don’t just become a traitor up to a certain point. Is there a limit to being a traitor? There is no limit to being a traitor. This is seen in the genocidal, occupation, and annexation policies that the Turkish state is currently carrying out in southern Kurdistan. Southern Kurdistan has been sold to the Turkish state. Turkish state officials and AKP-MHP regime officials always talk about a 40–45-kilometer-deep buffer zone. They say that 40–45 kilometers were sold to them by the KDP and Iraq, and that this would belong to them. They openly state this on television; they say that they will settle there and that they will annex the region. However, it is understood from the current reality, the level of the attacks, and what is going on that this is not just about 40–45 kilometers. We have received some information in this regard, and that is also what the current practices and the course of events indicate. In other words, they have really sold areas even beyond Mosul to the Turkish state. Some people express this, and we also get some information in this direction. To summarize, beyond Mosul has been sold to the Turkish state, and the question now is: how far beyond Mosul? After taking these places, the Turkish state will already be on top of Mosul and Kirkuk. Because the strategy is this, this is the Misak-i Milli strategy. It is the strategy to occupy and seize all of southern Kurdistan, including Mosul and Kirkuk, and to establish political, economic, and military hegemony over Iraq. In other words, it wants to grab all of Iraq. For example, let’s take the so-called ‘development road project’. We already explained that it should be named ‘occupation road project’ in order to reflect reality. Under the pretext of this road, they are sending their military and intelligence forces everywhere to occupy. It spreads and tries to legitimize its occupation, while nobody makes a sound. Now they have set together an Iraqi delegation that will go to Turkey on August 15th or the day after in order to hold talks on this topic. It is obvious that they will make new negotiations, which we will evaluate in the near future. Iraq has closed three legal and legitimate political parties; it has mobilized border forces everywhere; and they are engaged in very provocative activities. After doing all this, the delegation will go to Turkey and make new negotiations there. It is obvious that very dirty, very ugly things are being done and bargains are being made over Kurdish values, over Kurdish blood, and over Kurdish lives. Kurds are being sacrificed for dirty political and economic interests. They want to darken the future of the Kurds in the 21st century and the centuries to come. All the values that the Kurds have created with 50 years of struggle are wanted to be eliminated. And the policies of genocide, annexation, and occupation are wanted to be brought to a conclusion. Such a dirty plan is being carried out. Iraq is in such a dirty bargain with the Turkish state on the basis of some dirty political and economic interests and has become a partner in these policies of occupation and annexation. This is how the current Iraqi government needs to be seen.

The Kurdish society really needs to wake up on this issue. For example, the reactions in southern Kurdistan are insufficient. A policy of genocide, occupation, and annexation is being carried out in the South. Our people need to raise hell. It is the Anfal¹⁴. What is being done right now is Anfal. What is being done now is the continuation of the Halabja Massacre¹⁵. What Saddam did back then, Erdogan and Bahceli are doing today. Our people must take the same stance against Erdogan and Bahceli’s Halabja and Anfal as they did against the Halabja and Anfal of Saddam. Some political organizations, especially the KDP, suppress the people, and those who resist are killed by the Turkish Republic. It implements special warfare in many ways and methods. But the future, existence, and freedom of our people are at stake. Our people must not succumb to such oppression. Everyone who is conscious and aware of this situation must take a very strong stance. A very dangerous policy is being carried out in the South. The issue is not the PKK or anything like that. The issue is to completely abolish the status in southern Kurdistan. It is to commit genocide there and to occupy and annex the lands. There is already terrible assimilation, cultural assimilation. You cannot prevent assimilation solely by using the Kurdish language. Right now, Kurdish culture and values are being destroyed. How can one explain such insensitivity, such silence, and such heedlessness? I mean, is this the stance of a society with patriotic feelings and reflexes? Should this be the stance of the intellectuals of the South? Should this be the stance of political parties and formations that call themselves patriotic? To remain silent is to be a partner in this policy of genocide, occupation, and annexation. These cannot and must not be accepted. In that sense, our people must show a very strong reaction. The intellectuals in Kurdistan, particularly in southern Kurdistan, and in Iraq should show a very strong reaction. In this regard, our people must stand up for themselves. They must protect their values, their existence, and their freedom. It is necessary to take a very strong stance on this.

Recently, Iraq has closed down three political parties. Among these parties was the party of the Êzidis [Yazidi] in Shengal [Sinjar]. And this coincided with the 10th anniversary of the Shengal genocide. After this, Iraq’s attitude and approach are actually becoming clear. How do you evaluate these developments?

We strongly and angeredly condemn this approach by Iraq. What damage has the Freedom and Democracy Party of the Êzidis (PADÊ) caused to Iraq? They must explain this, and they must explain it to the Êzidis. Iraq is shutting down a party that has been engaged in politics and diplomacy to defend the existence and freedom of Êzidis after the 74th ferman¹⁶, in order to make the voice of Êzidis heard in the world. It defends the rights and freedoms of Êzidis and explains the 74th ferman to the world. It struggles for the freedom and rights of the Êzidis. What is the harm of such a party to Iraq? Why did Iraq shut it down? Êzidis, their representatives, and the co-chairs of the democratic administration of Shengal made some statements in this regard. They said that this is a continuation of the ferman. They said that what Iraq is doing now makes them a partner in this ferman. This is a very heavy assessment. But it also pointed to some realities.

ISIS did not attack Shengal alone. On August 3, 2014, ISIS was an allied force of the AKP. There is still huge support from Erdogan and the AKP for ISIS. In fact, ISIS attacked Shengal with the encouragement of the AKP and Erdogan. Erdogan also played a role in the genocide in Shengal; he is guilty. And now, as a result of the impositions and pressures of the fascist regime in Turkey, ruled by Erdogan, Bahceli, the AKP-MHP, and Ergenekon, and the impositions and pressures of the KDP, Iraq has decided to shut down PADÊ. Of course, no Êzidi can accept this.

Likewise, Tevgera Azadi is a movement struggling for democracy in southern Kurdistan and Iraq. It is influenced by the paradigm and thoughts of Rêber Apo and takes him as its basis. It does not have any organizational ties with our organization. Neither it nor the Democratic Front. They are based on Rêber Apo’s paradigm, and they are waging a struggle for democracy in southern Kurdistan and Iraq. They work for the development of democracy. Now what harm can or did they do to southern Kurdistan and Iraq? Of course, we have been aware of the activities of Turkey and the KDP for years. It is exerting very intense pressure on Iraq to close down these structures. Most recently, on July 3, Massoud Barzani went to Baghdad. He met with many embassies and also met with many government and non-government circles in Iraq. Massoud Barzani had the closure of these organizations in his file. We know that very well. They have been working on this for years. After this closure decision, Hoshyar Zebari and similar KDP officials have already announced how happy they are. They got results from their work. Turkish state officials shared the same feeling. Now, of course, there is this side of the issue. Iraq took such a step to please the Turkish state, to please the KDP, and to fulfill their demands and impositions. But in doing so, it adopted an extremely impersonal and characterless attitude. There may be impositions and demands of the Turkish state, but the Turkish state is waging a war of genocide against the Kurds and Êzidis. It is waging a war of genocide against the peoples of the Middle East. It is waging a war of extermination and massacre, and the KDP is a partner in this policy. Such impositions by the Turkish state, the AKP-MHP regime, and the KDP are understandable. But does Iraq have to accept them? Iraq claims to be an independent state. Doesn’t that state have its own will? Doesn’t that state have its own stance and character? Doesn’t it have a principle? It is clear that this government has no own stance and no character. A very simple approach has been taken for dirty, simple interests. We consider this behavior of the current government to be a great insult to the history of Iraq, a great insult to the Iraqi people, and a great insult and a great insult to Iraqi society. The thing to do against this is to struggle against it.

The ferman on the Êzidis continues in the Êzidi camps in the south. Yesterday, some imams made a statement and the Êzidis in South Kurdistan were threatened. This resulted in a great outrage in the Êzidi camps. As far as we were able to follow the developments, basically all the Êzidis in the camps want to return to Shengal. They are piling up at the Semalka Gate, where they do not let them pass through. Some of them found other ways and returned directly to Shengal. No one wants to live in those camps. They see this as part of the ferman. The fear of the ferman has entered their hearts. The Êzidis in the camps are in great fear and panic. Sure, there really is this danger. Right now, both the KDP and the AKP-MHP are waging a war against the peoples hand in hand with ISIS. They have brought hundreds of ISIS fighters to Behdinan, and they intend to bring even more. It is they who are burning and destroying villages. They want to settle these mercenaries and gangs there. Who do those mercenaries and gangs see as their main enemy? The Êzidis. Not only there, but generally in southern Kurdistan and Iraq, such groups are organized. ISIS is not finished. ISIS maintains a significant amount of its power in Iraq, Syria, and many parts of the region. Therefore, of course, Êzidis are in great danger. They should not stay in those camps. They could experience a great ferman like August 3rd. Just as the KDP left the Êzidis defenseless in 2014, it left them alone facing the ISIS genocide supported by the Turkish state. The same thing can happen in those camps. Therefore, of course, it is a great danger to live and wait in those camps. For years, the KDP has taken those camps hostage and has been conducting a blackmail policy on those camps. Against the world, against everyone. It has also turned them into a vote depot. By force, by force of arms, and by material means, they are able to get their votes in the elections. On the other hand, they have them do all kinds of dirty work. The KDP tries to create mercenaries and gangs by themselves. From prostitution to drugs, they do all kinds of filth and dirty work on Êzidis in those camps and make Êzidis live under a different kind of ferman there. Since 2014, the ferman has actually continued in those camps; just the form has changed. There is a cultural ferman there, a cultural genocide. They make Êzidi girls, women, and children do all kinds of dirty, ugly work there. Such a situation has arisen. This situation reveals the reality of the KDP much more clearly in the eyes of the Êzidis. As I pointed out before, we need to fight strongly against all these attacks. Êzidis are no longer the old Êzidis. They are an organized society. They have political and social power. They have developed self-confidence and willpower. They have become an organized society, and an organized society is the greatest power. No matter who it is, It can be women, youth, a people, or an oppressed group. When you are organized, you become stronger. Then you have willpower and courage. Today, there is serious consciousness, enlightenment, organization, and willpower among Êzidis.

The genocidal attacks in northern Kurdistan are getting more intense. From Kurdish writings to Kurdish traditional dances, whatever belongs to the Kurdish identity, the AKP-MHP fascist regime is attacking with great intolerance. What should be the attitude, struggle, and stance of the people against the ongoing physical, cultural, and ecological forms of genocide?

When a total war of genocide is waged, of course the first and main target of this is cultural genocide. They have been practicing systematic cultural genocide on Kurds for a hundred years. It has come to such a point that in some parts of society, this has become internalized and turned into auto-assimilation. In other words, it has reached a situation where a society assimilates itself. This actually reveals how brutally deep this cultural genocide is being carried out. For the last nine to ten years, a total genocide policy has been carried out intensively everywhere. They are trying to break the will of the Kurds and take them over. But after ten years, it has become clear that this policy has not yielded the desired results. This policy has failed. It is bankrupt.

We have seen the municipal elections, and we have seen the general elections. There was usurpation and a lot of cheating. Despite this, the Kurds put their will forward. They could not get their desired result, so they imposed persecution in the prisons by taking Imrali as the center. There is terrible torture everywhere. Sick people are getting killed and massacred in prison. But still, they did not achieve the desired result. The resistance in the prison continues. They are practicing a terrible, systematic genocide on society. Attacking people that are dancing govend¹⁷, speaking their language… It has been doing this for years; it is not new. They even attack the cemeteries and the mortal remains of the fallen. In other words, there’s nothing they haven’t done. Still, they are trying to intimidate the Kurds, crush them, and break their will. That is the aim. But these are empty efforts, since they cannot be successful. If it hasn’t gotten results so far, it will never get results this way. No matter what this state does, it cannot break the Kurdish will. It cannot eliminate the Kurdish desire for freedom. As they say, the genie is out of the bottle. These people woke up and tasted freedom. These people have organized and gained willpower. This people has been struggling for fifty years. The systematic genocide policies have been defeated by these people. They try to ban the govend, but who listens to that ban? They ban the language, but who listens to that ban? In fact, such attacks should be the reason for growing and developing the struggle more. The awareness and spirit of our people are strong. When oppression is severe in a place, the reaction against it is also severe. This is very obvious in Kurdistan. It has been practicing genocide for years, hasn’t it? For example, the Kurdish people’s July 14th¹⁸ prison resistance, the August 15th breakthrough, and the forty years of struggle since then have revealed a tremendous level of development. Our people have fought against all kinds of oppression, against all kinds of intimidation policies with great struggle, great resistance and have brought about such gigantic developments. Today, there are very strong values and developments that have emerged as a result of the struggle of our people.

The Kurdish freedom struggle is not a cause that only concerns the Turkish state. It has spread through the region and has become an international reality. The Kurds have become a fundamental element of political balance in world politics, even in the conditions of the Third World War. No one can deny this reality anymore; no one can do politics by denying it. This is a fact.

There are a thousand and one forms of struggle. My friends important evaluations and calls in this regard. In the face of these attacks on our language, our people should speak Kurdish everywhere. They should speak Kurdish at home, Kurdish on the street, Kurdish when shopping, and Kurdish at work. They should write in Kurdish. Kurdish writers, illustrators, and distinctions should base their work on Kurdish literature. The development of Kurdish literature is of great importance. This is the most meaningful response to such attacks. Kurdish culture, folklore, art, theater, and dengbej¹⁹, all branches of Kurdish culture need to develop. Also, for example, in Kurdish cinema, high-quality Kurdish cinema and theater should develop as well. Art and culture must develop tremendously. This is the most meaningful answer to these special warfare methods that have been developed within their genocidal concept. They are trying to proceed with a cultural genocide and are therefore, for example, organizing festivals in many parts of Kurdistan. A serious struggle must be waged against them. If there are going to be festivals, Kurds should organize these festivals themselves. It is inevitable to wage a very strong struggle against such assimilative policies of cultural destruction.

At the same time, there is ecological destruction. There is a systematic policy of destruction of nature in Kurdistan. Forests are being set on fire everywhere. It’s almost as if there are no more valleys, hills and mountains where they haven’t opened mines. Everywhere, they are building mines, sand quarries, dams, and hydroelectric power plants. There is a massacre of nature, a genocide of nature, and an ecocide. This is being developed consciously in Kurdistan as part of and continuation of their genocide policy. Of course, there is plunder and ecocide in Turkey too. But in Kurdistan, they are systematically carrying it out as a part and continuation of the genocide policy. They want to dehumanize and depopulate Kurdistan. If possible, they want to turn the country into a desert. As our people say, the government is hostile to animals, plants, water, and soil. All hell must break loose against this. This is the most natural and legitimate defense. Our people are on their feet everywhere against this ecocide, against this cultural genocide. After all, the two are interrelated. A culture develops based on the geography in which it resides. Can there be a culture that is detached from its environment? In this respect, all hell must break loose. For example, now the enemy especially focuses on Shirnek and Colemerg (tr. Hakkari). It wants to completely de-Kurdify that region. It wants to turn it into a military outpost and a source of energy. It is destroying its mountains and every part of the region with mines and oil wells. The people of Shirnek, Colemerg, and Botan should raise hell. Regardless of age, people should be in serhildan²⁰ everywhere. There are the examples of a mine project in Colemerg and similar developments that are taking place in Pasur (tr. Kulp). There is social resistance against the mines in Pasur, but it is still insufficient. It is the same in Dersim (tr. Tunceli). They are building a lot of dams on the Munzur River and many mines on Munzur Mountain, mines where they search for gold by using cyanide. Munzur is what makes Dersim. If there is no Munzur anymore, then there will be no people of Dersim anymore. All hell must break loose. This is the most insidious form of genocide and one of its most serious forms because it is directed against culture and ecology. There needs to be a strong resistance against this.

The Iranian state recently sentenced the journalist Pakhshan Azizi and the women’s rights activist Sharifeh Mohammadi to death. There were also other death sentences recently in Iran. How should this be assessed?

This policy of execution is the most brutal practice of our time after isolation. Iran has been practicing this for years. The decisions it has taken recently are decisions against Kurds, journalists, and political activists. I strongly condemn this approach. This practice in Iran does not benefit neither Iranian society nor the Iranian state. It causes and creates decay in society. I mean, gradually, for example, some people watch it as if it is normal. This is a very brutal practice and needs to stop. Such practices create a strong reflex in society. We saw this in the “Jin Jiyan Azadi” uprising. There is a tremendous social reflex. Iranian women and Iranian society want freedom, democracy, and equality. They want to put an end to such practices and these execution. They want the laws to be changed and abolished. Iran needs to change, and the state and government need to democratize. Just recently, elections took place, and a more liberal, reformist candidate was elected. The public, Iranian society, and even the Kurds have developed an optimistic approach and expectation. Some steps can be taken, and some democratic and reformist developments can take place. The people are watching to see what kind of changes will take place. Of course, one of the most fundamental things that needs to change is the abolition of the death penalty. Pakhshan Azizi’s stance is extremely valuable and honorable, as is the stance of Sharifeh Mohammadi. They put forward an honorable resistance. Again, Werishe Muradi did not appear in court in response to the death penalty. She boycotted the court in protest. That stance is also extremely important, but there needs to be much stronger support from society. Iran must put an end to such practices. It cannot achieve anything with these oppressive policies. The reflexes of society are intensifying. This regime needs to see and appeal to the demands of the people, particularly the demands of women, for freedom and democracy. Otherwise, it will face much more severe processes. That is what all developments and trends are pointing to.

At the same time, tensions between Israel and Iran continue. The assassination of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran and the targeting of a senior commander of Hezbollah have once again brought the risk of a regional war to the agenda. Is such a war possible, and why does Turkey in particular want this war so much?

The answer to the question of why the Turkish government wants this war should be clear. The Turkish state is conducting a policy of genocide against the Kurds. It is also conducting a hegemonic policy and an expansionist, neo-Ottomanist strategy in the region. Now, if the war spreads through the region, if the current war goes beyond Gaza and Israel, if it spreads to Lebanon, if it spreads from Lebanon to Syria, if it gradually turns into an Israeli-Iranian war, of course, the alliance of AKP-MHP, Ergenekon, and ISIS would benefit from it, since they see plenty of possibilities and opportunities for themselves in such a war. Using such chaos as a justification, this alliance would continue its expansionist, neo-Ottomanist policies wherever it wanted, without any limits, and would go as far as it could. For this reason, they want this war to spread, especially to turn into a war between Iran and Israel, and they are looking forward to it.

Since Haniyeh’s death, the ruling media has been airing war broadcasts every other day. In all these broadcasts, they are always provoking Iran and Israel. They see this to their advantage, because this fascist AKP-MHP regime feeds on war, chaos, and genocide against the peoples. That is how it survives. It is in dire need of such a war in order to maintain its power, while it is already facing collapse. Both to bring the Kurdish genocide policy to a conclusion and, as we said, to reach the borders of Misak-i Milli and to establish hegemony over Iraq and Syria. There are other places, like Libya, that it has already gone to. It is conducting a general hegemonic policy in the region. Their assessment of the situation is that if a fight were to break out between Israel and Iran, both would emerge weakened, while they themselves would gain power. Therefore, with this expansionist policy, they want to conclude Kurdish genocide and become the first hegemonic power in the region. With this calculation, it is provoking this war.

The other day, comrade Abbas also evaluated the killing of Haniyeh. He said that because Turkey wants this war so much, the Turkish intelligence (MIT) and the state played a decisive role in the assassination. The Turkish state wants this war very much; therefore, it really wanted to make Haniyeh’s assassination an occasion for this, and it worked to a certain extent. It is a fact that Turkish intelligence played a role, but not only them; it seems that this attack was a joint plan of Mossad, the CIA, and MIT. These three forces played a role in the assassination of Haniyeh. It is known that the Mossad is strong and organized in Iran. There are many people who are recruited by the Mossad. The CIA is the same. Likewise, MIT has been seriously organizing itself in Iran, especially in recent years. The Turkish state is preparing itself for a possible Iran-Israel war or a possible civil war in Iran. It expects and wants this. Therefore, it is understood that these three intelligence organizations played a role in this attack. Iran is now in a difficult situation, and there are serious internal discussions. There is constant social anger, there is resistance, and there is economic collapse. Since Israel is taking advantage of this weak situation in Iran, Mossad is most probably also involved in this, and the US is also openly behind Israel. It supports these attacks. The CIA and Mossad are partners in many attacks, and MIT is also involved. The Turkish state is already eager for a war between Iran and Israel. It is doing everything to further weaken Iran, to squeeze it, and to extract concessions from it. It even caused an explosion in Iran through ISIS. What these three intelligence organizations are working on is the spread of the war in the region. The transformation of this war into an Israeli-Iranian war has been discussed for a long time, even in terms of Lebanon. It has been discussed that the war will spread to Lebanon as well. The gradual spread of this war is a very bad situation for Middle Eastern society and for the peoples.

Peoples suffer greatly from such bloody wars, massacres, and genocidal wars. Societies suffer greatly, and particularly women suffer greatly. This benefits the rulers, the hegemonic powers. It benefits the genocidal colonialist powers. In this respect, we are against all kinds of war. We have been waging a struggle against the genocidal war waged by the Turkish state for more than fifty years. Israel is currently waging the same genocide against the Palestinian people as the Turkish state is waging against the Kurdish people. We strongly oppose this. The way of struggling that organizations like Hamas are waging on behalf of the Palestinians does not express the interests of the Palestinian people. Instead, it causes great harm to the people. The war in this region based on nationalism, religionism, and sectarianism does not benefit the peoples, it harms them. This is the most brutal aspect of the nation state. Nation-states are uniformist and fascist. The Turkish state, for example, is a racist nationalist state, and Israel is not different. This nation-state system has brought nothing to the peoples except suffering and genocide. There are very valuable solution projects that Rêber Apo has developed for humanity, not only for the region but for the peoples of the world, against the destruction caused by this Third World War that has been going on in the Middle East since the ’90s. There is the paradigm of the Democratic Nation: the equal, free, and democratic coexistence of all peoples, all cultures, and all beliefs, based on the democratic confederal system. In it, everyone can organize themselves according to their own will and administer themselves accordingly, while at the same time being interwoven with all others confederally. This is the only solution to the chaos and war in the region. The nation-state system is the enemy of the people, society, and women. But the system of a democratic nation is the system of peoples, women, beliefs, and all kinds of cultural communities. This shows how important and valuable the ideas and paradigm of Rêber Apo are and how great the need is. The solution lies at hand. Right now, there is a situation of strangulation. Everyone is cutting each other’s throats and tearing each other apart. It’s horrible. Human deaths have become very commonplace. Massacres have become very commonplace. Hundreds of people are killed and massacred every day somewhere. Thousands, tens of thousands, are maimed. Millions are traumatized. This is a terrible reality. All these are the consequences of those brutal fascist nation-states and the system of capitalist modernity.

This means strengthening and expanding the resistance front of the peoples. The fate of the Middle East depends on the success of this struggle we are waging. The fate of Middle Eastern society and peoples, the fate of women, depends on the success of this struggle, because this is not just a Kurdistan freedom struggle. This is the struggle for a democratic Middle East. On June 12, 2019, when Rêber Apo met his lawyers, he said something very important. He evaluated and criticized the genocide policy of the Turkish state and gave warnings. He said that if there are no Kurds in Mesopotamia, there can be no Turks in Anatolia. If you destroy the Kurds, you cannot keep the Turks alive. You cannot create the Turk in the absence of the Kurd. This is a historical truth. Now the Turkish state is trying to spread Turkishness through the Kurdish genocide, to expand the borders of Turkey, and to carry out an expansionist policy. But the Turkish state should be aware of this historical truth. It will be buried under the very same policy and strategy it is conducting. That strategy and those policies will be its tombstone. It cannot keep the Turks alive like that.

Now some people are saying that Rêber Apo wants a solution, but that the movement would prevent it. Of course Rêber Apo wants a solution, he always points this out. When Rêber Apo met with his lawyers on June 12, 2019, he said, “I am now at a more advanced point than in 2013 in terms of a solution. But I am looking for an interlocutor.” However, the Turkish state is not seeking negotiations or a democratic solution process; it has opted for a policy of genocide. Its path is one of destruction and genocide against the Kurds. But as Rêber Apo has already said; there is no need to talk about the execution of this plan, they will bury themselves in it, this path can only lead them to their own grave.

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