our interviews

We are approaching the 46th anniversary of the founding of the PKK. It emerged on the stage of history as a national liberation movement, but however, with the processes of change and transformation it has gone through, it has become a movement that transcends this definition. How would you define the PKK today?

As a movement and as a people, we are approaching the 46th anniversary of the PKK and are entering the 47th year of the freedom struggle. I celebrate this to all comrades, the women and the youth, our guerrilla forces, our people, our international friends, and particularly to the founder and leader of our party, Rêber Apo¹. In the 47th year of struggle, I wish outstanding success to all those waging the freedom struggle. At the same time, I commemorate with love, respect, and gratitude all our heroic martyrs, starting from the first great martyr of our party, comrade Haki Karer, to our most recent martyrs, comrades Asya and Rojger. I thereby reiterate our promise to achieve their goals and keep their memories alive.

In these past 46 years, the PKK has always been one of the most discussed topics in Kurdistan and Turkey. In fact, this is not limited to Kurdistan and Turkey; it has been one of the most discussed topics in the whole region and even in the world. This is something that still continues today. It shows the importance of the PKK for Kurds, for Turkey, for the Middle East and the world, and for humanity. It shows that it has a great meaning and value. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be so much discussion. Although one doesn’t want to mention it too much, Suleyman Demirel, one of Turkey’s politicians, had a famous saying: “They stone the tree that bears fruit.” The fact that it has been discussed so much shows that it has borne a lot of fruit. Because the discussions were multifaceted, they were both positive and negative. The most beautiful words, the most meaningful poems, and the most touching songs were written on the PKK, and at the same time, the harshest words, insults, and so-called criticisms were also made against the PKK. Everyone evaluated it according to themselves, and they continue to do so.

Rêber Apo has made the most beautiful, correct, and meaningful evaluations of the essence of the PKK. And first and foremost, it is our great martyrs who shaped it. It are the comrades like Mazlum, Hayri, and Sara that have formed the definition of the PKK. They lived as the most beautiful PKK members and made the PKK meaningful and play a role.

At the time of the founding of the PKK, the world was different. Freedom struggles were also different. There was the Soviet Union, and national liberation movements – the independence and freedom movements of the colonized peoples – were developing all around the globe. Humanity was at such a point of the most revolutionary, radical, and libertarian thought of the period. That was what the PKK took as its basis. It developed and strengthened as a socialist-led national liberation movement. It defined itself in this way. And this was natural. But already then, it was still not exactly the same as other national liberation movements. For example, according to the understanding back then, it should have had a relationship with the Soviet Union, and it always defined the UdSSR as a strategic ally, but the Soviet Union did not recognize the PKK ideology and struggle. It didn’t accept it. It had already opposed Kurdish struggles in many periods before. The difference came from this: Kurds were defined as a society under colonization and genocide, but the other colonies of the world are colonies of this or that state or several states. Kurdistan was a colony of the global hegemonic structure of the globalized hegemonic system of capitalist modernity, the global hegemonic structure of the ruling and statist system. As such, even if it envisioned a nation-state, it always found itself in contradiction and conflict with the unity of nation-states embodied, for example, in the UN. That is what made it different from the very beginning.

Again, its development was different. Marxists evaluate that capitalism develops national consciousness and organization. But in Kurdistan, as Rêber Apo stated, capitalism did not play such a role. Indeed, capitalism pushes nationalization here too, but this nationalization is not the nationalization of the Kurds; it is the nationalization of the states that establish sovereignty over the Kurds, of those states, of the nations that give them an identity, Turkish nationalization, Arab nationalization, Persian nationalization. For Kurds, this means national extinction.

As the struggle in Kurdistan continued and developed, and as the socialist, national liberationist struggles in the world further developed, these differences increased and deepened. And Rêber Apo evaluated every development of this process and showed it to the world. As a result, the system united its different currents in order to be able to launch an international conspiracy attack for the annihilation of Rêber Apo on October 9, 1998. It gave no place to Rêber Apo, Kurdish freedom and independence. It became antagonistic and hostile to the Kurds. It launched an attack that envisioned the destruction of Kurdish existence and freedom. As such, no matter how much ideological and political work and how much of an armed struggle, the realization of a nation-state as a solution in Kurdistan was made impossible. The struggle for it was met with the attack of the international conspiracy. While analyzing the conspiracy and defining the struggle against it, Rêber Apo evaluated the general situation in depth and developed what today is known as the paradigm shift. He broke away from the nation-statist ideology and turned the PKK into a party of the democratic nation. It ceased to be a party centered on power and the state and turned it into a democratic socialist party that is based on social ecology and women’s freedom. It changed its mentality, ideological line, politics, program, strategies, tactics, and style. Thereby, a new PKK was defined.

The new PKK is conducting a revolution of truth. Rêber Apo made this clear in his prison writings and stated that the truth revolution is a revolution of mentality and of the approach to life; an ideological revolution. Paradigmatically, the PKK is no longer power-statist; it no longer envisions a nation-state solution. It is based on women’s freedom. It is a party of free women. From the beginning on, it gave importance to women’s liberation, but gradually it transformed itself into a women’s liberationist party that puts the women’s liberation revolution on the highest agenda. At the same time, it also is an ecologist party. It rejects the imperialist, capitalist attack that envisions the destruction of nature as well as society. It stands against the destruction and consumption of nature. Such an ecologist party, of course, envisions a moral and political society as its basis. Ideologically, it is based on the free individual and the democratic commune.

Another characteristic of the PKK is that it says what it does and does what it says. It does not leave the implementation of what it says for later. It applies it within the party, it applies it in the guerrilla, and within the women’s and youth struggle. The PKK puts its ideology and mentality into practice. It is a party that envisages unity of thought, action, and life. With the new paradigm, this characteristic became much more developed and embodied. The new PKK can be defined as a democratic-socialist party based on women’s freedom, social ecology, and the moral and political society.

What has the PKK achieved throughout the past decades? What is the situation of Kurds in the context of the development and transformation of the PKK? What has the PKK changed and created in Kurdistan society? How has it affected the peoples of the region?

Something that I have already said on the occasion of previous anniversaries can be repeated here. These questions can also be asked the other way around. In other words, what would have happened in the past 46 years if the PKK had not existed? What would be the situation of Kurds and Kurdistan? Based on this question, one can try to come up with an evaluation. What would have happened then? The name of the Kurds would have been forgotten. Kurdishness would have been completely assimilated and disappeared. Kurdishness as a national identity, Kurdish society as a social structure, as one of the most ancient still existing societies would have disappeared. This is not an exaggeration. These are not forced words to praise the PKK. The situation of the Kurds and the situation in Kurdistan at the time of the emergence of the PKK and of Rêber Apo are known.

Let’s go back to that time; let’s remember it. How organized was the Kurdish society? Was Kurdishness a value that was embraced, or was it a value that was hidden, avoided, rejected, and denied? It was the latter. The dominant, colonizing, and genocidal forces were denying it, insulting it, and doing everything to destroy it. The PKK put an end to all this. It revealed the historical identity of the Kurdish people, renewed and changed the people. It brought them together with free and democratic communal values and truly created a totally new situation for the Kurdish society. It created the free Kurd, the free Kurdish society, the democratic system, and life, and it did this on the basis of women’s freedom. It did it on the basis of social ecology. It did it on the basis of the free individual and the democratic commune, that is, a sharing society, a politics free from all forms of exploitation and oppression. It created such a structure and values. It made Kurds at peace with themselves, made them love themselves, and made them embrace their own identity. The PKK made them live their own truth with enthusiasm and without antagonization. This is an important aspect of the struggle. It made Kurds at peace with themselves; it made Kurds understand themselves. Without making enemies of others, it has brought them together to live together as brothers, side by side, together, under the umbrella of the democratic nation, within the system of democratic confederalism.

All developments in Kurdistan bear the stamp of the PKK. Kurdishness did not come into existence with the PKK, of course. It is one of the most ancient societies in history. Kurds did not resist only with the PKK. The entire history of the existence of this people is characterized by resistance. Life in Kurdistan, life in Mesopotamia, is all about resistance. Kurds have always resisted, but the resistance of the last 50 years has been through the PKK. In the last 50 years, it was the PKK that marked the resistance, represented it, and brought up all the achievements created through it. It pioneered the resistance. It was the gradual systematization and transformation of Rêber Apo’s feelings, thoughts, and evaluations that turned to life. It started from one individual; from there it turned into a group, then into a party, became a guerrilla, and became a people. For decades, Kurdish society has been shouting the chant everywhere: “PKK is the people; the people are here.” The PKK has gone beyond being a party. It went beyond being a freedom movement, a resistance movement. It has become the culture, language, history, lifestyle, and identity of a people. It has reached a structure that represents its past and future. There is a society that expresses itself through this party. This society finds its most beautiful values in the PKK and with Rêber Apo. Taking all this into account, if there had been no PKK, there would have been nothing left in the name of Kurdishness and Kurdistan.

The Kurdishness and the Kurdistan created by the PKK do not resemble any other people or country. It is a completely different reality of society. Today it is a center of attraction for everyone, particularly Rojava. It used to be said that this region was, particularly for women, the most oppressed and enslaved area in the Middle East. The Rojava Revolution was a women’s freedom revolution. Women took a great lead and gained will. Rojava and the Euphrates basin was an area where so many different peoples are intertwined, where contradictions and conflicts were developed the most under the ruling, statist mentality, and politics. Now all of them live together under the roof of democratic confederalism and the democratic nation, as brothers and sisters. They have no problems, no contradictions, and no conflicts that they do not or cannot create solutions for by themselves. It became like this in the shortest time. It has become a model in an exemplary position. A democratic society is being formed. There has been an exemplary life without power and state for ten, twelve years. A life that is currently unique in the world. Therefore, it is a center of attraction for everyone in search of a new life. And there are many such searches in the world, and they find the answer to their search in Rojava, in the paradigm of Rêber Apo.

What is the significance of democratic confederalism and the solution model of the democratic nation in a geography characterized by violence, conflict and war such as the Middle East? Why is this model seemingly so vital for the different peoples, beliefs and even the marginalized communities?

The Middle East, Kurdistan in particular, is a historically formed multilingual, multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-sectarian geography. It is an area where many different societies are intertwined with each other, where many different social realities have developed alongside each other and have been shaped over a long historical process. It is the area where sociality and natural society have developed. It is also the area where power and state structures have developed and taken shape and ruled for the longest time. What do democratic confederalism and democratic nation mean in such an area? It means the free self-organization of all identities and their free participation in the unity of the democratic nation, in the framework of democratic confederalism. Within this unity, they can freely live their own uniqueness. All identities, religious identities, national identities, social identities, see their uniqueness in the freedom of the other in the democratic nation model, under democratic confederalism. They see their existence in the existence of the other. They see their life in the life of the other. However, religious, nationalist, sexist, ideological patterns, and liberalism express exactly the opposite. It is this thinking that to ensure one’s own existence, the destruction of others is needed, that to ensure one’s own freedom means the enslavement of others. As an example, Rêber Apo evaluated Israel, which is currently launching heavy attacks. It is trying to ensure its existence by destroying those around it. It follows a mentality that by enslaving those around it, the Jews will be free. As Rêber Apo said, this is impossible. By destroying others, the Jews cannot exist and be free. No one can. But all these mentality patterns and currents of thought see their own future in marginalizing, destroying, oppressing, and enslaving the other and accept and foresee this as the truth. This is what is turning the Middle East into a bloodbath. So many religious and sectarian divisions, so many ethnic divisions, so many social divisions, and contradictions; if they all clash with each other, a deadlock emerges. The democratic nation, democratic confederalism, is a movement to set an end to this. It is a movement to eliminate the bloodbath, these contradictions and conflicts. And it does so through a change in mentality, through an important revolution of mentality. It means the elimination of the understanding that ‘others must disappear, everything must be mine’. It envisions a democratic, socialist, sharing, and communal life. It is not about saying, “Let me live!” but about saying, “Let everyone live!”. It is about saying, “For me to be free, everyone else must be free!” It envisages developing and ensuring freedom under democratic politics.

As the mentality and the concepts of democratic nation and democratic confederalism developed by Rêber Apo on the basis of the new paradigm are carried forward, they have a great impact on societies and the various ethnic structures in the region and in the world and thereby become a center of attraction. It becomes a way out, a way of salvation for everyone. The hegemonic system is hostile; they attack, but the societies see it as a way out. In the Middle East, states are preventing the spread of these ideas, but in different suitable areas of the world, they find the opportunity to spread more and to be more influential. If these opportunities are utilized, they will lead to very rapid developments. A new life, a new order of relations, a new existence for humanity. It starts a new era, a new history. Against the 5,000-year-old male-dominated mentality and system of power and the state, and against the 500-year-old male-dominated mentality and system of capitalist modernity, it envisages a new era of life, a new historical process that is compatible with natural society, that makes peace with nature, and that envisions humanity living freely and fraternally in happiness. It is clearly seen that it has already led to important developments and will lead to more.

A women’s revolution is taking place in Kurdistan under the leadership of the PKK and PAJK and based on the philosophy and efforts of Rêber Apo. How did this revolutionary process develop, and what changes did it bring about within society? What are the reasons for the women’s liberation struggle to constantly be deliberately targeted by the states?

Historically, these issues have been evaluated and discussed. The PKK’s new paradigm, the struggle that is developing in Kurdistan under the leadership of the new PKK, is seen, discussed, and evaluated primarily on the basis of the philosophy of women’s liberation, within the framework of defining and developing the women’s liberation revolution. This is a current situation.

In order to be able to assess how it came to this point, it is necessary to examine Kurdish society historically. On the basis of which characteristics was a society that could survive and sustain itself in the midst of so much fighting in Mesopotamia shaped? There are historical realities for this, and there are many social dimensions that need to be taken into consideration for this. What happened historically in Kurdish social organization and women’s participation in social life is also important for today. It is not a society in which the power and state system are highly developed. It is the least developed in society. It is a society that has not realized empowerment and statehood. What does this mean? It means that the women play a very active role in society. It means that, to a certain point, women’s freedom and leadership still prevail in society. Statehood and empowerment are expressions of male dominance; they are its products. It is a result of the politics of the dominant male mentality. Since historically this is not as deeply rooted in Kurdish society as in many other societies, this already makes a big difference.

As for the development in the PKK, Rêber Apo is a personality passionate about freedom, and this from his childhood on. His development of the movement is also like that. His passion for the research on the Kurdish identity and struggle for freedom has created so many achievements and brought about so many developments, making him a true pioneer of his people. It made him a personality that overcame many difficulties and obstacles. The same thing manifested itself in the problem of women as the most oppressed, exploited, and enslaved gender. He approached this issue seriously from the very beginning. As he understood the Kurdish reality, he tried to understand the reality of women, and as he analyzed the Kurdish reality, he analyzed women. This is how the evaluation and analysis of women developed, and of course, when it came to the point of founding a party, Rêber Apo saw the power of women, the power of women marching towards freedom and struggling for freedom, as the most fundamental force of this party.

One of the core calls in the PKK founding declaration was made to women and was prepared by Rêber Apo. It still is a strong call that affects everyone who reads it. He called for creating a new life with the PKK by destroying all forms of slavery, fighting against all forms of domination, and envisioning a free society and a free Kurdistan. This was an important call, but since the mentality and ideological system of real socialism were still in the foreground at the time, it took some time before the realities corresponding to the call became the defining factors in the political and organizational framework of the PKK. How was it initially received back then? It was perceived as one of the many arms of the movement, as a pillar of struggle and organization. The pioneering struggle for women’s freedom was not initially seen as fundamental. But the women’s organization took the issue very seriously. It developed from the mid-1980s onwards. It developed in Europe and spread to other areas. Women already participated in the PKK when it was still a group, and later, through the breakthrough of August 15, when the guerrilla struggle was implemented, many women joined its ranks. The more problems arose in the guerrilla struggle and the more corresponding solutions developed, the more the importance and role of women in the struggle became apparent. Accordingly, the issue of women’s freedom and the issue of the family were more on the agenda of Rêber Apo, and he evaluated them more. After the 3rd Congress, with the establishment of the Mahsum Korkmaz Academy, Rêber Apo’s theoretical evaluations deepened. It was multifaceted and developed in many dimensions, but there were two main dimensions of Rêber Apo’s deepening at this time. One was the dimension of the guerrilla struggle, and the second was women’s liberation. These developed in parallel to each other. They deepened, complemented, and strengthened each other. Gradually, this had a great impact on society. Not only did the participation in the guerrilla increase, but from the beginning of the ’90s, the women-led national resurrection revolution, the serhildans², developed. This marked the beginning of the women’s liberation revolution and gave birth to the ‘Party of Free Women in Kurdistan’ (PAJK). Women’s militancy developed; the autonomous women’s guerrilla developed, which today is embodied as ‘Free Women’s Units – Star’ (YJA-Star). Consciousness, ideology, and the organization and struggle based on it developed intertwined with each other.

With the new paradigm, Rêber Apo took women’s freedom as a fundamental pillar of the paradigm. The ecological society, the ethical and political society, and the freedom of women; these are the three main pillars of the ideology of Rêber Apo. He addressed the necessities of women’s freedom on many levels and accordingly developed ‘Jineoloji’ as a science of women. The Kurdish woman embraced and participated in this by struggling under the most difficult circumstances, taking on all kinds of risks and tasks, and assuming the responsibility and duty of leading the struggle for their country and nation. Thus, the ideology of women’s liberation, the women’s liberation revolution came to the agenda. On the basis of PAJK, KJK, and YJA-Star. It became a movement to create a new life, a new society, a new revolution. It defined the 21st century as the century of women’s freedom. This development affected all the movements related to women’s issues in the world. It revealed the narrowness and inadequacy of feminist movements, movements that fought for women’s rights and for materialistic equality to reduce the oppression of women. It drew them to the women’s liberation revolution.

Rêber Apo created the slogan “Jin, Jiyan, Azadi” and called it the ‘magic formula’. It indeed has become a magic solution power, a pioneering force for the problems created by the power and state system. Humanity is marching under the leadership of women. It is marching with the Jin Jiyan Azadi revolution. The women’s liberation struggle and revolution is not just a part, a branch, but the vanguard of the struggle for freedom and free life. It constitutes the basis of social freedom; it expresses its leadership. It envisages overthrowing and changing male dominance in every aspect.

Now we are approaching November 25th; it is called the international day against violence against women. It is followed by November 26 and 27, the anniversary of the founding of the PKK. Creating a women’s party, creating a women’s liberation revolution, and thereby turning the struggle against violence against women into a women’s liberation revolution was the most appropriate approach, and it still is. This needs to be evaluated together. November 25 finds its best meaning in the reality of the PKK on November 26 and 27. The greatest women’s liberation struggle is the PKK struggle. A struggle that finds its representation in the foundation of the PKK. Some people narrow the definition of violence too much. They envision it as material violence and oppression. But it is not like that. By exposing not only visible violence but also invisible male-dominated violence on women and by envisioning a women’s liberation revolution that fights against it, the PKK is a movement that strongly wages the struggle for women’s freedom and equality as women’s identity against the male mentality and system. This reality is much better seen and understood by women today. Women realize the meaning of PAJK’s leadership more and more. They understand more deeply the Jineoloji developed by Rêber Apo. They participate more than anyone else in the global freedom campaign for the physical liberation of Rêber Apo. They embrace it and they lead it. Because they see and understand with their lives and experiences that Rêber Apo is indeed the strongest companion of women.

This will be the fundamental revolution of the 21st century. And the statist structures are attacking this because it is the women’s liberation revolution that most concretely exposes and confronts the mentality and political system that creates the state and power. It analyzes not only the state and power, but most crucially the mentality and hierarchy that lead to it. It analyzes male dominance beyond the state and power. It reveals the male-dominated mentality and system that is internalized in all areas of life beyond the rough appearance of the state and power. In this respect, they fear women. The struggle for the revolution of women’s liberation consciousness unmasks them the most. The struggle for women’s liberation exposes the male-dominated mentality and system, the power and state system the most; it shows its brutality, its unacceptability, and its unlivability the most. Therefore, the ruling statist forces are afraid of the women’s liberation struggle. That’s why they attack. In the past, some struggles for women’s rights did not reveal their faces at all. They were even trying to win it for themselves. This is due to liberalism. They were under its influence, but now the women’s liberation revolution that is developing on the basis of Jineoloji is shattering and eliminating all this. It completely unmasks them and reveals the truth in all its depth. Therefore, the power and the state system are afraid. It sees its own end coming. It sees that it will lose everything in the women’s liberation revolution. Things have changed. The women are seen as the most dangerous and are therefore attacked, oppressed, and arrested. Women understand this reality better than anyone else; they educate and organize themselves accordingly. Men who become conscious and organized on the basis of women’s liberation see this reality. Free women and men who strive for liberation can analyze this reality together and struggle more effectively. No matter what they do, the male-dominated mentality and politics, the power and state system will not be able to destroy this consciousness and the organization and struggle it creates. On the contrary, this consciousness, organization, and development will destroy the male-dominated mentality, politics, and the power and state system. It will make the 21st century a century of a free and democratic society based on women’s liberation.

You assessed that the PKK is a movement of leadership. How should that definition be understood? What is the reality of leadership in the PKK, and what is the role of Rêber Apo? How should the participation of this reality be?

That is correct; the PKK is a movement of leadership, and that is related to pioneership. It is a pioneering movement. It is not an ordinary movement. It is not a movement that gives power and support to something. On the contrary, it is a movement that analyzes, evaluates, criticizes, takes positive aspects, rejects negative aspects, and envisions a new life. It is a revolutionary movement, a movement of great change. It does this as a pioneer. It is undoubtedly a movement of leadership that is leading the way, preparing the new and free life, and exploring and creating the paths to get there.

Rêber Apo has a decisive contribution in the birth, establishment, and everything of the PKK. Rêber Apo’s role is decisive. The roles of others vary accordingly. There are those who contribute more, those who contribute on average, those who contribute less, and of course there are those who obstruct. From the beginning, the role of Rêber Apo has been decisive. It is a fact that Rêber Apo is the one who contributes the most, from forming the movements thoughts, theory, program, strategy, tactics, leadership, training cadres, to leading the party, forming the guerrilla, and leading the people. He has always been at the forefront, spends the most effort, and makes the greatest contribution.

The PKK did not take shape through a bunch of people sitting around a table, discussing, agreeing on some principles, forming a common administration, and establishing a party. There are such movements, such parties. They have tried to emerge in Kurdistan throughout history, but the PKK was not like that. From the beginning, the PKK is a movement shaped around Rêber Apo and formed on the basis of joining Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo determined, developed, and created all the measures, principles, and values of the movement. Others joined him and became one with Rêber Apo. Becoming a PKK member, joining the party, becoming PKK, means joining Rêber Apo, forming and organizing around Rêber Apo. This is an important aspect, an important feature of the PKK. This is what leadership means. Rêber Apo said that participation in the leadership is based on consciousness and belief. Some participate with consciousness and some with conviction. But the most correct way is to participate with both, as he said. This is how to reach truth. He also stated that this is how comrades like Mazlum and Hayri participated, and they became the most successful party members. Consciousness means understanding the truth of Rêber Apo. Of course, belief means participating and being attached to the truth. But just seeing and evaluating the truth is not enough. In order to be a good revolutionary, militant, or patriot, the truth must be well understood and set into practice. Participating with knowledge, understanding, and belief is the right participation; it brings out the most successful revolutionism and patriotism.

In the past and now, especially on the basis of the new paradigm, we question the way of participation in the PKK and in the reality of the Rêber Apo more. There are many things we arrange according to our own wishes, and one thing that falls within this framework and is much discussed is emotional participation. “I have participated according to my emotions.” That’s not how it works. That’s not how you join the PKK. On the contrary, Rêber Apo evaluates the emotion that is not thought through and not organized as a great danger. The power of emotions, when they are well thought out and organized, is a power that cannot be destroyed. But an emotion that is detached from thought and organization, through which no action arises, opens the way for great dangers and prepares the way for fanaticism. Emotional participation must be well analyzed and evaluated in a step towards the PKK and towards leadership. It can be a start, but Rêber Apo and the party must be well understood. With this, together with deep thought and conviction, participation can take place. The mistakes and damage caused by emotional participation must be overcome.

To this day, the PKK is not fighting with the Turkish army, the second largest in NATO, but is actually fighting against NATO’s Gladio. It is a force that not even states could withstand, but the PKK seems to have managed to strengthen itself in the resistance against it. How has the PKK made it to the present day? In other words, what are the characteristics of the PKK that have kept it alive?

This actually is a good definition; the question is well put. It really reveals the PKK’s strength. It expresses what kind of war it is fighting and against whom it is fighting. You ask how it was able to fight against these forces? Where did it find the courage and strength to wage war? And how did it survive while fighting against such a powerful force?

Well, especially for the last 26 years, these attacks have been carried out at the level of an international conspiracy. It directly targets Rêber Apo. The capitalist global hegemony directly plans, organizes, and executes it. It is the same now as it was in the beginning. There has been no change in this regard. Of course, it is not just the Turkish army, the Turkish state’s special warfare system, or the Turkish intelligence that conduct these attacks. From the very beginning, and on an increasingly prominent basis, the PKK has been fighting the NATO system, Gladio, and beyond that, the power and state system, the male-dominated mentality and system. These are multileveled struggles: ideological struggles, conscientious struggles, moral struggles, cultural struggles, literary struggles, and struggles of emotions. These express a struggle as great as war, as great as political war, as great as social war. Even more than that. How does the PKK do all this? How has it survived? The essence of it needs to be evaluated on many dimensions. It is essentially based on its own strength, the strength of autonomy, the strength of the people, especially women, young people, and workers; after all, it has also adopted the name of the party of working people. How did it become such a strong autonomous force? This has to do with Rêber Apo’s approach and view of life. It can also be linked to the concrete situation in Kurdistan. There was no other option in Kurdistan. There was a situation where there couldn’t be any hope of getting support from others. There was no forming of alliances to hope for. Those who tried to collaborate with the state were more dangerous than the most worthy agents. A society and a country ignored and destroyed by the global dominant structure of the capitalist system. Who are you going to get support from? Everyone is part of this system, and the ruling power and state system are against you. There was the Soviet Union that said it was an alternative. But they didn’t support either. In fact, as the Kurdish freedom struggle and the organization of the PKK gradually developed, the Soviet Union declined, and on the basis of its ideological contradictions, it dissolved and collapsed. There was seemingly no basis left. Rêber Apo saw this reality very well from the beginning. His awareness of history was very strong in this regard. He learned lessons of history well. In other words, he always questioned the situation of the resistance in the first quarter of the 20th century, the results of the resistance in the 19th century, and why these resistances were defeated, crushed, and failed to succeed. And thereby he realized that one has to rely on one’s own strength, one’s own power, but of course this is not enough; relying on one’s own strength is not enough. One will rely on one’s own strength, but one will also have to rely on the people, on the power of people. One will believe that people who become conscious, educated, and organized are the greatest power. Technique is, of course, power; weapons are power; money is power; but the greatest power is the conscious and organized man. The greatest power of struggle is the apoist militant, the sacrificial militant, the PKK cadre. How did Rêber Apo define this by saying that it is the truth that has been rendered organized and activated? Bringing a person to this state is the greatest power. There is no power that can prevent it. This is not an exaggeration; we don’t need to prove it. The most recent example is the attack aimed at TAI in Ankara, which is the reality shown in Asya Ali and Rojger Helin. The place attacked is one of the most protected and is secured by the joint force of 40 states. But still, nothing could prevent that revolutionary militancy. This is the PKK strength.

How is it able to create such militancy? By analyzing life and living according to the findings. The power of Rêber Apo needs to be seen, as do his persuasiveness, sincerity, consistency, and power of analysis. He offers a new life. He reveals the characteristics of this life and defines it as humane life. Based on this, he reshapes and educates human beings with their emotions, mindsets, and souls and creates a new free, conscious, and organized human being. This lies in Rêber Apo’s power to explain the truth and analyze life. He reveals the facts and truths at this level. There is no cheating, no wrong. He analyzes the concrete situation that reveals and shows everything clearly. Accordingly, he educates people and creates such a force. The power that makes the PKK invincible is this sacrificial militancy, the consciousness that creates it, the paradigm, the last line, the line of democratic civilization, the theory of democratic modernity. As long as this reality is taken as a basis, everyone should know that no one can defeat the PKK; the PKK will remain invincible. It has been like this until now. It will be like this from now on too. It is probably best to seek and understand the secret here.

What especially distinguishes the PKK from other national liberation movements and Kurdish parties? What is the secret of the PKK? How did the PKK turn into an ideological, political, military and social reality that is perceived by everyone?

We already partially touched this above. There are many things that distinguish the PKK from other organizations and Kurdish parties. It differed in the way it defined, recognized, analyzed, and thought about the Kurdish reality, the reality of Kurdistan. It also differed with his commitment to Kurdish existence and freedom. Rêber Apo said that if he had not succeeded in uniting himself with the existence of the Kurdish people and the free existence of the Kurds with his own existence, he could not have created any of these developments. Kurdish patriotism and libertarianism are about dedication and not for material gain, not to become a civil servant or to make a name for oneself. He did not accept such a way of life for himself. He refused the seemingly beautiful material life. The other Kurdish organizations did not. They lived like civil servants of an organization. They wanted to threaten the state a little bit and get more space for their civil servantship. They were begging for a little more share of the exploitation of Kurdistan and Kurdish society for themselves. They were not breaking away from the system. They envisioned living within the system. Therefore, their so-called Kurdishness, patriotism, revolutionism, and socialism always led them to develop their individual lives, to take some space, or they remained weak and powerless. They were not strong, strong-willed, or assertive. There was too much expectation on the outside. Instead of relying on their own power and developments, they had this kind of empty Kurdishism based on blunt nationalism. In other words, there was a ‘materialist revolutionism’. Therefore, they associated with the socialist system and liberalism. They evaluated the Kurdish reality on the basis of their own interests. Therefore, they could not break away from the system. They always sought reconciliation with the system and were reformists. They could not build an effective struggle within the system. When they came into contradiction or conflict, they immediately disappeared. Because they were under the control of the system. They did not have a structure to fight against the colonialist, genocidal mentality and system under all circumstances.

The PKK was not like this. It criticized their reformism, surrenderism, primitive, reformist, and petite bourgeoise nationalism. The PKK criticized them intensely. On the basis of these criticisms, Rêber Apo both formed his own understanding and line and shaped himself according to them by educating himself on this basis. He did not become like them. When the conditions changed a little and the attacks increased, those in control disappeared. They tried to hold the PKK responsible for their liquidation due to their own approach and style. Their misconceptions were at that level. They did not assess the conditions in Kurdistan correctly; they were not committed to Kurdish freedom. They did not educate and organize themselves in a way to wage a true struggle for freedom under all circumstances. They could never get out of the colonialist genocidal control. Those who were under control disappeared in a short time.

Also, other forces and organizations had been liquidated, but the PKK managed to always protect itself in these developments because it was open to change and transformation. Rêber Apo criticized the dogmatism but also gave self-criticism and said that we were also affected by this dogmatism. But we must know this; nevertheless, in the 20th century, Rêber Apo was the least dogmatic personality, the one who approached the process most openly and creatively. As he developed with the struggle, he deepened this creativity even more. He was constantly aware of change and transformation and envisioned renewing himself and the movement. He was always looking for innovation, not repeating what already existed, repeating things he had memorized, and doing what he had done over and over again. His questing characteristic never disappeared. His innovativeness deepened; he was not afraid; he did not shy away from change, transformation, and innovation.

The paradigm shift did not come out of nowhere. And the change, development, and renewal in Rêber Apo did not happen only with a paradigm shift. There were always changes and developments step by step throughout the process. The paradigm shift against the international conspiracy actually foresaw a radical self-criticism, a radical renewal, and change. This is where the PKK’s strength and invincibility lie. In its transformativeness. Rêber Apo said that his most fundamental characteristic is his change-orientation. The power to defend something, to persistently defend it, to create it is also its character. He never gives up on that. This is the reality, the reality that made him struggle against so many attacks, that gave him the strength to fight. The international conspiracy, the attempt to destroy him, failed. So they put him in the Imrali system of torture, isolation, and genocide. They said now it was over. They said the PKK had maximum six more months to live. No one believed that there would be any more struggle, but Rêber Apo believed in himself; he trusted himself. He trusted in his own strength and called on the organization and the people to follow him. And our movement and our people responded to this call of our leader. It was Rêber Apo that succeeded. Rêber Apo created success where everyone else was surrendering. This is not a normal, ordinary situation. Rêber Apo overcame any difficulties and obstacles and created new things starting from scratch, all of this with its own power. It is necessary to assess and understand Rêber Apo’s leadership qualities in all their dimensions.

It is this characteristic that makes the PKK so strong and invincible. This is how Rêber Apo was able to take down every hindrance in front of him. No other leader in Kurdistan has been able to lead uninterruptedly for more than 50 years. Despite the attacks of the international conspiracy, Rêber Apo did not interrupt the march of leadership. There is nothing similar in the world. He showed the strength to struggle for such a long period. The PKK gains success to the extent that it understands and implements the thoughts of Rêber Apo, organizes itself accordingly, and takes action. The more it puts it into practice, the more successful it is. The more it understands, the more it puts it into practice. Sure, there are criticisms and self-criticisms in this regard. Sure, there is a lot of inadequacy; one needs to see that too. But the secret really lays in this creative, innovative power, this power of change. Anything that cannot change itself and that repeats the old cannot succeed, even if it is the PKK.

Footnotes: