our interviews

On December 28, 2024, a delegation of the DEM party had a meeting with peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan in Imrali. During this meeting, Ocalan issued a 7-point declaration with concrete suggestions to pave the way for a solution and for achieving peace. How do you read the efforts made by Ocalan for this process? How is this process currently developing, and where is it heading?

Before answering your question, I would like to draw attention to the current massive attacks against North and East Syria that are particularly focused on the Tishreen Dam. In the most recent attacks by the genocidal fascist Turkish state and its gangs, six very valuable and honorable patriots were martyred in one day. Among them was the Kurdish actor Bave Teyar (Cuma Xelil), who always knew how to depict the pain, happiness, beauty, and problems of our society with his art. Then again, Menice Haco Heyder, a member of the General Assembly of the PYD, who was one of the pioneering women in this resistance. I commemorate all of them with respect, love, and gratitude and offer my condolences to their families, to the Kurdish people, and to all peoples of North and East Syria. I also wish a speedy recovery to the wounded. These dishonorable and despicable attacks against the people show the whole world their level of hostility against the Kurdish people. Those who were martyred are the pioneers and heroes of our society. The enemy is taking revenge on the Kurdish people by killing the artists, intellectuals, politicians, and pioneers of this society. I strongly condemn these attacks.

Now coming to your question; as you said, the delegation went to Imrali on December 28, but of course, there was a process before that. On October 1, the president of the MHP, Devlet Bahceli, has stretched out his hand to the MP’s of the DEM party in the Turkish parliament. Since then, there have been many different discussions in Turkey and in northern Kurdistan. Then Rêber Apo’s¹ meeting with his family and later on with the delegation of the DEM party followed. All these are interconnected with each other and form this process. The discussions and the messages given by Rêber Apo are very decisive. The conditions in which Rêber Apo is living, especially since 2015, are severe and total isolation. All communication with the outside world has been cut off, and he is kept in a cell on the prison island. Despite this, Rêber Apo worked out seven points and formulated a declaration clearly formulating what needs to be done in order to achieve the solution of the Kurdish question and the problems in the Middle East. It is clear what the duties of the parliament, the political parties, the current government, and the party that represents the will of the Kurdish people in the legal field are. It is also fully clear what the position of Rêber Apo, who leads the people of Kurdistan and the revolution, is.

The Kurdish people and their international friends have struggled relentlessly for the Kurdish question to be discussed and solved in this way, and this struggle is still going on. The beginning of such a process itself is a result of this struggle. If the struggle had not been successful, if it had not spread to all parts of Kurdistan, if this resistance had not been carried out, if the true face of the genocidal Turkish state had not been exposed, such a process would not have emerged. Over the period of the past ten years, they have been terrorizing the people of Kurdistan, their international friends, and democratic politics.

In the meantime, the Turkish state and the AKP government have given this process a name; they call it ‘Turkey without Terror’. Comrade Helin Umit and a few other comrades have already underlined in recent interviews that it is us who strive the most for such a process to get rid of terror, because we have been subjected to the terror of the Turkish state more than anyone else. The people of Kurdistan, particularly the women, and the other oppressed peoples know what kind of terror the state is carrying out. For more than one hundred years there has been terror in Kurdistan. If it were not for this state terror, maybe there would not be a need for such a process today, because perhaps there would have been no need for the Kurdish people and the freedom movement to take up arms. Why did it come to this point? At the beginning of the movement, there were no weapons; it did not use violence as a method of struggle. When the Kurdish people needed to defend themselves, they took up arms and used them to defend themselves. Weapons were not taken to invade other people’s countries and oppress them; on the contrary, Kurdistan was invaded, plundered, and genocide was practiced against the Kurdish people. The people were displaced from their lands, and all methods of oppression were used. That is why the freedom movement resorted to arms to defend the people. Rêber Apo has been struggling according to this line for 40 years to achieve a solution. Although armed struggle was waged, Rêber Apo was always in search. The weapon was a tool to come closer to the solution of the Kurdish question. For example, in 1993, during the Turgut Ozal period, a process started with the mediation of Jalal Talabani. Rêber Apo was determined, strong and believed in himself then as he does now. He took a stance, but Turgut Ozal was poisoned and killed by the deep state, which was not in favor of a solution, and so back then, they set an end to the process.

Rêber Apo evaluated all the previous efforts and processes well, drew conclusions, and stated that he was ready for a solution. We know that he has gathered all his power for the solution of the issue and the success of the process. The declaration consisting of seven points needs to be seen in this light. The delegation went and met with all political parties of the parliament within this framework, and positive statements were made, but no practical steps were taken. One of the first steps that needs to be taken is for the parliament to step in. The parliament has to convene, and a commission needs to be established, but no such discussion is taking place. The press is solely serving the special war and is mostly talking about whether the PKK will lay down its arms today or tomorrow. And it does this using a dirty and poisonous language. They want to contaminate and obstruct this process with such attacks. These are those who sustain themselves through war, those who gain rent, and those who are enemies of the peoples. Great struggle must be waged against this. They discuss everything, but they do not discuss Rêber Apo’s rights. If they really want to develop a solution, Rêber Apo’s conditions must be improved immediately. The isolation must be fully abolished. Rêber Apo must be physically free. His security and health conditions must be ensured so that he can carry out the process. Rêber Apo must be able to share his ideas with journalists and address the public. Rêber Apo is the interlocutor, but he is in isolation and cannot speak. This is the reason why all the discussions going on at the moment make no sense, because they are only one-sided. Especially the AKP government is not clear. The delegation that met with Rêber Apo also drew attention to this and stated that the state has no clear position yet. Rêber Apo’s conditions must be improved in order to clarify all these and develop a solution. The government must give up its dirty language and instead respect and approach the process seriously. If they do not approach the process in this way, no matter what they say, they will not get results. Because the discussions are not serving a solution. As I pointed out before, this state terror must stop immediately.

They are arresting journalists, are attacking North and East Syria and the guerrilla, and are continuing the isolation of Rêber Apo. His lawyers and family have been requesting meetings every week, but they are not allowed. At the moment, a global campaign is being carried out for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. This is the demand of the Kurdish people and their international friends. Dozens of renowned people have sent letters to the Council of Europe for them to play a role in ensuring Rêber Apo’s free participation in the process. This struggle must continue. No one should make the mistake of thinking that just because there are meetings with Rêber Apo and discussions on the process, the global campaign for Rêber Apo’s physical freedom has achieved its goal. Thinking like this would lead to bad results; on the contrary, the struggle must be increased even more strongly. The global campaign for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo must be developed with richer methods, actions, and activities.

In 2015, there were also efforts to solve the Kurdish question; a declaration was issued back then on February 28, but Erdogan later broke the process by saying that he was not aware of such a thing. That is something your movement is always dragging attention to, but you also highlight that the Kurdish people are stronger than ever. In your perspective, how can an outcome like the one in 2015 possibly be prevented?

For our movement and our people, our representative and interlocutor is Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo has stated that he is ready, and he has prepared a seven-point declaration. The question is how ready the power in front of him is for a solution. It is necessary to focus on this point. In 2015, the declaration announced at the Dolmabahce Palace by the then HDP delegation and the government officials created hope among everyone that the Kurdish question would now be solved. But Erdogan and the AKP were more concerned with their own interests. They made some statements about a solution, but they still haven’t convinced themselves in terms of mentality. They are not taking risks. They have a wrong understanding. They think that a solution might weaken them, but on the contrary, those who solve this question that has existed for over a hundred years will be the greatest and strongest leaders of the region. If an honorable peace is achieved between the Kurdish and Turkish people, Turkey and Kurdistan will become the rising star of the Middle East. The basis for this is ready. The freedom movement has never had a problem with the Turkish people or the peoples of the region. Despite all the violence against our people, the freedom movement has always been the movement of the peoples, internationally, and has played such a role.

Now, however, it looks as if Erdogan is once again essentially thinking about how he can win another election. He recently gave a speech to this effect at a meeting of his party. He also went to Amed (tr. Diyarbakir) and spoke there about the history of the Kurdish and Turkish people, among other things. He also went to Riha (tr. Shanliurfa), where he basically made Ibrahim Tatlises declare his candidacy for the presidency. He is such a pragmatist and manipulative person; he is hypocritical to our people and to public opinion. Every day after he makes a statement, he makes polls to see if his vote has dropped or risen. He also sacrificed the previous process to his power. At the group meeting, he said that he has instructed his friends to do the necessary work. This raises many questions, of course. Is this instruction for the solution of the Kurdish question or to complete the genocide? Is this the instruction for the attacks against our people in North and East Syria? Ideas and actions must complement each other. The attacks they conduct drive forward the war and genocide. The continuation of this shows that this is their mentality. Nothing is clear in the process so far; on the contrary, there are many contradictions. There have been many statements of the Kurdish people, the freedom movement, the PKK, and the KCK. All underline the necessity of this process and that Rêber Apo is its interlocutor.

Surely, conjunctural approaches also play a role in this process. Since November 27th, the developments in the Middle East, especially the change of the Syrian regime and the presence of many hegemonic powers in the region, have created different balances. Kurds are one of the main actors in the formation of these balances. In his last interview, comrade Cemil Bayik stated the position of our movement very clearly. Of course Kurds are not without alternatives, and of course Kurds are not helpless. For 40 years they have been waging armed struggle, for 52 years they have been gaining consciousness due to the struggle and leadership of Rêber Apo. It is well known where the Kurdish people have come from. The Kurds and their freedom movement did not want to take up arms. That is something one needs to drill on. One needs to assess in the course of what, as a consequence of what, the PKK finally decided to take up arms as a last resort. For example, when comrades Kemal, Hayri, Mazlum, Sara, Akif, and Ali went on a fast unto death in the prison of Amed, were they armed? It was 1980; the PKK had not yet started its armed struggle. But the state used such violence. It denied the Kurdish people the right to live and massacred them. That’s why the Kurdish people took up arms to defend themselves, to protect their very existence.

If they really want to solve the issue, they must take steps and approach it more seriously. They should not come with threats, blackmail, and repressive rhetoric; the Kurdish people have had enough of that. The state has been using this language for 40 years. These threats do not help anyone. Both the freedom movement and Rêber Apo read this process correctly and want to improve the brotherhood of the peoples and the democratization of Turkey. One of the seven points Rêber Apo draws attention to is the democratization of Turkey. Turkey’s democratization can only be achieved by recognizing the rights of the Kurds, recognizing the rights of the oppressed, and changing and transforming the Republic. This Republic has existed for one hundred years based on the denial of the Kurds. Approaching the Kurdish people with the same dirty language and the same mentality does not help anyone, and they will not get results in this way.

As the freedom movement, our stance on the solution is clear. As the movement and the Kurdish people, we will continue our struggle for freedom no matter what. There is no reason to step back in the struggle. But it is also not right to say that nothing is changing, that the statements and negotiations are completely empty. We are in a conjunctural process. It is still possible that this becomes a solution process, a process of the peoples. Rêber Apo gives it a great chance. The address is right; going to Rêber Apo, taking him as an interlocutor, and putting him into action is correct and a positive approach, but the basis on which this develops must be filled in. Nothing can develop on nothing. As early as 2015, Rêber Apo was saying: “If you want me to play a role, you need to amend the constitution and need to pass the necessary laws.” Devlet Bahceli said: “Let him come and speak in the parliament”. For him to be able to come to the parliament, the parliament needs to first of all take a step and needs to pass a law. Conditions must be created for Rêber Apo to play his role. He has a map, a plan to solve the Kurdish question, and believes in himself. The current government and other political parties need to pave the way for a solution. Civil society, women’s organizations, and the whole society can play a positive role in this process. The ground for this is prepared. Discussions have been going on for two or three months; the whole agenda is shaped around these discussions. This is crucial, but as I said, some people still want to manipulate the essence of this agenda, and this should not be allowed. This must be prevented, and therefore a great struggle is necessary.

You also talked about the power of the Kurdish people. On the one hand, there are positive efforts for this process to proceed in the right direction, but on the other hand, there are also approaches that are far from a solution. In this course one has to mention the attacks on North and East Syria. The Tishreen Dam is being targeted and bombed incessantly, and this is taking place in front of the eyes of the whole world. How do you evaluate this brutality of the Turkish state against the people, the invasion attacks and the unprecedented resistance of the people in Rojava against all this?

Once again I respectfully and with all my love greet the months-long resistance of our people in North and East Syria and gratefully commemorate all the martyrs. Since December 8, the attacks on North and East Syria have been intensified. In the past, it was ISIS that attacked Kobane and Shengal with great hatred, and today the same brutality is being inflicted on our people at the Tishreen Dam in front of the eyes of the whole world. The people get their electricity and water from this dam, that is why the Turkish state and its gangs and mercenaries want to take or destroy it. It attacks the dam as part of its genocidal concept. The people, regardless of age, and particularly women, are standing guard at the Thishreen Dam in this cold, in the middle of winter. And still, the Turkish state is carrying out such immoral attacks. It is bombing and massacring people who are dancing and tries to break the will of these honorable, strong-willed people. In Tishreen, once again it is revealed that no power can break the will of an organized people. The will of an organized people is greater than any power.

Our people there, Bave Teyar among them, in many interviews said: “We are greater than death”. This people who have chosen freedom have defeated death and fear. What power can defeat this people? They know that they cannot defeat the people, yet they continue the genocide. Public opinion remains silent against these attacks. The fascist Erdogan is supposedly brokering a ceasefire in Gaza, but what is the difference between the people of Palestine and Kurdistan, North and East Syria? On the one hand he is doing this, and on the other hand he is massacring a people. There is a so-called new power in Syria, HTS, and in front of their eyes the people of North and East Syria are being genocided. But they have more relations with Erdogan. Can they ensure unity between the peoples in this way? Can they defend the unity of Syria? It is their mentality that creates the real disintegration, their brutal attacks against this will. The people of North and East Syria show what democracy is, how a free co-existence of peoples and beliefs can look like, and what democratic confederalism and democratic nation are.

Among those who were martyred were also members of the Zenobia Women’s Council, both Kurdish and Arab women. Already when the attack on Manbij took place, they deliberately targeted and abducted members of the women’s council of Manbij. With these attacks, they are taking revenge on the paradigm of women’s liberation. It is the mentality of ISIS. The mercenaries of ISIS were saying that they must prevent being killed by the hands of women in order to go to heaven. They have such a dark mentality. And they want to make those the governors of the new Syria.

The resistance of the people against this is very important. They are going to Tishreen as human shields; they are not leaving their lands, they are not migrating, and they should not migrate. With this stance they have demonstrated the patriotic stance of the 21st century. They are waging a revolutionary people’s war.

Our people in northern Kurdistan took important actions from the beginning. They started to hold vigils in Nisebin (tr. Nusaybin) and Pirsus (tr. Suruc), they organized marches in many places, but these are not enough. They should embrace the resistance in North and East Syria stronger, everyone should mobilize in the face of this resistance and increase their struggle. Our people in southern and eastern Kurdistan, as well as in Shengal and Europe, must also more strongly embrace the resistance. The peoples of North and East Syria are going through a struggle of life and death. By the destruction of the dam, the enemy wants to put the peoples of North and East Syria through a great disaster. Therefore, our people must take a stand against these attacks wherever they are. What is being done is not enough. The peoples of North and East Syria must not be left alone.

The coalition forces are right there, and they are issuing daily statements, but these people are being massacred in front of their eyes. Could they not prevent the Turkish state and its gangs from further attacking? It could easily prevent it. It could establish a no-fly zone. The Turkish state and its gangs cannot fight against the freedom fighters on the ground, so they are constantly attacking from the air. The coalition forces must fulfill their duty. Twelve thousand people gave their lives for this struggle. The resistance and heroism of the Kurds, the peoples of North and East Syria, are well known. And it is neither moral, conscientious, nor humanitarian to remain silent while all this is happening, solely for their own interests. On the one hand, the Turkish state is trying to break the will of the peoples of North and East Syria and destroy their gains, on the other hand, it talks about wanting a democratic Syria.

Once again, the peoples of North and East Syria, especially women and youth, are showing a very honorable stance and resistance. This is the stance of freedom, this is the woman in struggle. Kongra Star, the Zenobia Women’s Council, the Syrian Women’s Council, the defense forces of YPJ and SDF, and the peoples of North and East Syria are taking an honorable stance and represent a common will. We draw strength from their honorable stance. They are resisting not only for North and East Syria but for all humanity, for the freedom of all women. If this ISIS mentality prevails in the region, no one will be safe. That is why the resistance in North and East Syria must be given much more support. A limit must be put on the Turkish state and its gangs and mercenaries. It is impossible to put this burden only on the shoulders of the Kurdish people. The people of North and East Syria, regardless of their age, continue the legacy of Bave Teyar, Menice, Muzaffer, Kerem Ehmed, and all those who gave their lives within this struggle. Before they had even held the funerals of their martyrs, they again suffered two martyrs and many wounded in new attacks. It is their struggle and resistance that will bring upon great success.

We are gradually approaching February 15, the anniversary of the abduction of peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan. Although a process has been initiated, he still is under severe total isolation. What should be done in order for the struggle to reach its goal?

This year, February 15 marks the 26th anniversary of the international conspiracy. Rêber Apo has been a prisoner, a hostage, for 26 years. The purpose of this conspiracy will be discussed more widely this year. At that time, Rêber Apo said: “The aim of this conspiracy is to start a war between the Kurdish and Turkish people that will last for centuries; a war in which both the Kurdish and Turkish people will lose”. The anniversary of the international conspiracy also marks the 100th anniversary of the revolt of Sheikh Said and his friends. The Kurdish people have been struggling for their freedom in different ways and methods for a hundred years. The PKK, the freedom movement, has also developed in this vein. The method, mentality, and ideas are of course very different, but the Kurdish people have been resisting for a hundred years. The Republic of Turkey has a hundred-year history, and the Kurdish people have a hundred-year history of struggle.

What makes this year’s anniversary so specific is the fact that Rêber Apo is in this process. There is a lot of talk about the upcoming February 15. It is said that Rêber Apo will make a call. As the people of Kurdistan, the international friends of the Kurdish people, all democratic forces, women, youth, and all parts of society, we must bring the struggle against isolation to its peak on February 15 and make it the basis for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. This is crucial. These are symbolic days in world history. We can turn February 15 from one of the darkest days in history to one of the brightest shining. Rêber Apo’s ways and methods are like this. Wherever there is despair, he creates great hope. He illuminates where there is darkness. He achieves great gains at a time when it was believed that there was nothing left. Rêber Apo’s ways and methods have brought the struggle to the present day and achieved great gains.

I believe that the period we are in will create a difference for the freedom struggle of the people of Kurdistan, women, and all peoples. But we must not wait for anyone to take initiative and must increase our own struggle. There are some actions planned in this regard, such as the long march led by the youth in Europe. Kurdish organizations abroad have done some symbolic actions this year. For example, there is the action of 26 people from 26 cities who will walk for 26 days. I salute all those who participate in these actions. Such colorful protests should be organized everywhere. Everyone should support the move developed by Rêber Apo in order for the process to succeed. Those who will lead this are our struggling people and the international friends of our people.

Regarding the global freedom campaign for Rêber Apo and the solution of the Kurdish question, it is necessary to make preparations for February 15, to turn that day into a great success, a great day of freedom, a day when Rêber Apo’s physical freedom is achieved. There is still some time, but there mustn’t be any procrastination, preparations must be made, and all kind of actions must be taken and organized. They wanted to make this century the century of genocide of the peoples, but Rêber Apo wants to make it the peoples’ spring, the century of freedom for the peoples, women, and all humanity. This process can provide a great breakthrough in this regard. Everyone must play their role in this process, which needs to be pioneered by the women and the youth.

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